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AFC Ajax
Author: S448250 Date: 08-12-2004, 15:33	I'm following this forum quite a time now, and i'm just curious: how does the people in other countries see AFC Ajax. Specially the "big" countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, France and England. For example what did the fans of Juve and Bayern think when Ajax came as third in their group?

Author: anita
Date: 08-12-2004, 15:41

For us with half our life behind us, Ajax was a great team. Was. If you compare the other third-seeded teams in CL group stage with Ajax, Ajax is just a whatever-team. Respected of course, but no more than Monaco, Leverkusen, PSV, PSG, Celtic. And looking at their campaign in Dutch PL this season so far, well......But I presume they still have their famous football school ("academy"), where they used to produce class player after class player.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 08-12-2004, 15:47

Ajax has a huge reputation in France, because this team made people dream in the 70s and because of its reputation of playing beautiful game and being excellent in young players detection.
That seems to me very unfair for the other Dutch teams, namely PSV, that would deserve at least the same if we focus on recent years, but I guess that it's because of history. PSV team that won C1 in 88 was ugly and of course had nothing to do with the beautiful Ajax 95 and for those who remember the famous Ajax 70s.

As far as I am concerned, Ajax belong to the club of teams that I hate.For me, they are cherished by media but they currently certainly do not deserve such reputation (like Nantes in France).

In France we unfortunately do not see pictures from the dutch league. Living in the US, I have the chance to have one Eredivisie game on TV every week. I honnestly do not have time to watch all games, but I sometimes have a look at the Dutch league and I'm always surprised by the violence on the pitch, much more than in the Premier League and there are quite often some really nasty challenges or some very harsch tackles that it would be impossible to see in France for example.
When we bought Diarra from Utrecht (?), he was sent off in his first 2 games as he was used to play in the Dutch way.

Author: Joost
Date: 08-12-2004, 19:25

Well, it's funny you talk about violence on the Dutch pitches, Lyonnais. The most influential Dutch journalist who turns on tv 2 times a week and is the head of THE Dutch football magazine keeps saying that the referees here blow for everything and that almost nothing is allowed. According to him they create players who act like gays. (sorry).
But ok there were games in the past years in which it was awful. I remember last years PSV-Ajax when the two teams didn't make a single effort to touch the ball, they were only interested in bodyparts of the opponent.

And, when I was in France in august 2003 we went to OGC Nice - Ajaccio and I was surprised by the amount of violence. They were kicking eachother in pieces and the referee looked at it as if it was quite normal. He gave 2 yellow cards I think where it coulf have been 15 or something. Well, maybe an incident or just because it's a derby.
Besides that we, and the rest of the stand had to run because police used gas (don't know the English name) of which you have to cry during the game to cease riots. But the afmosphere was fantastic

Well, ontopic:
Ajax has done great in the past and surely are one of Europes big names in the history of football. But they are not that good for years now (1 QF in CL aside). Everytime they buy bad players for millions and millions. Don't think they have nothing to spend, they just use it wrong. Well, use it, I should say waste it. And it's not talking afterwards. For example, they bought one year a leftwinger for 4.5 million euro and at that time I was surprised. A year later they bought another player for the same amount and the same position. Both players have been put at the garbage for now and al that time until now they don't have a decent player for the position. But gone is 9 million euro's and 1 million salary times 2 each year. And so it's happened many times.
There are plenty of clubs which have much less to spend and do far better than Ajax almost everyyear in Europe. They have 55 million, at the moment 74 million dollars...

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 08-12-2004, 19:47

Joost > yes, a game such as Nice-Ajaccio is not representative of our league, because:
- as you mentioned, the real derby (from the emotional side) for Nice is not Monaco, but more more Bastia and to some extent Ajaccio given the number of Corsicans living in Nice
- Nice was the worst team last year in the fair-play challenge.

And in terms of quality of football, I doubt that you saw an interesting game

Author: m4e
Date: 09-12-2004, 13:06

Ajax have a great history, but in my opion the gap between ajax (and other big clubs of small countries) and the european top is getting bigger and bigger...
Just because off they play in a small competition and that's very regrettable.

A more attractive competition with play-offs (see next year) is no solution.
The only solution for this problem is unite the big clubs of the small leagues, and create a sixth great league like Spain, Italy, England, France, Germany.

What's your opinion?

Author: Ricardo
Date: 09-12-2004, 13:16

What is needed is more (TV-)money, so a bigger market, as the Dutch market is not enough. How can you create this? That's the question. Ajax can/should exploit their name more? They already have the biggest budget in Holland, mainly due to this, I guess. A BeNe-liga can be an option. Maybe we just have to live with it that you have bigger countries and smaller ones. It's funny to see players for the top teams that used to play in Holland(not only the Dutch players). Ibrahimovic, Cruz, Robben.

Author: macaskil
Date: 09-12-2004, 15:23

We have the same problem in Scotland.

Euroleague anybody? Excluding teams from the "big five".

The top 16 based on UEFA rankings would look like this

Porto
PSV
Panathinaikos
Celtic
Feyenoord
Galatasaray
Bruges
Ajax
Anderlecht
AEK
Boavista
Sparta Praha
Olympiakos
Rangers
Dinamo Kiev
Sporting

4 Portuguese clubs, 3 Netherlands,
3 Greek, 2 Scots, 2 Belgian
1 Ukrainian and 1 Czech

Most of these clubs are still in Europe, but only
PSV and Porto in the ECL last 16.

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: ignjat63 Date: 09-12-2004, 15:40	Expanding on m4e's idea (a really interesting one) and macaskill's club list we should think of new way of organizing Eurocups. For example, national champions of "all except big-5" should play a cup of their own for promotion into Euroleague (48 teams playing 4 knock-out rounds to get 3 promoted teams - no seeding just like pre 1992 times). And CL and UEFA should be reorganized too.

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: Joost Date: 09-12-2004, 15:44	It would be a strong competition. But here in Holland the media are suggesting there wouldn't be too much interest in it. They say people wouldn't be interested in the highlights Sporting Lisbon-Dynamo Kiev to watch. And you need the big tv-stations and their money to succeed. Furthermore how do you plan the promotion/degradation etc.

Author: macaskil
Date: 09-12-2004, 15:51

There's the dilemma. Even within the big 5 leagues there are only a few teams people throughout Europe want to watch. This doesn't matter too much as the other clubs get enough TV revenue from domestic matches even without European TV money. Whereas the likes of Ajax, Celtic, Porto, Anderlecht do not.

Either we have to have a new league as proposed - or the clubs concerned have to get used to life in a backwater. Porto showed that it IS possible to have success outside the big 5 - but also that it doesn't last long.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-12-2004, 16:00

I like the idea of regional leagues because a strong league competition comes before success in Eurocups. Interest in macaskill's league should increase in time. As many clubs are of equal strength it would be tough to win and hard to evade relegation. And the clubs mentioned have a lot of supporters throughout Europe. So instead of thinking about interest of such a league at this point in time, we should be thinking how to raise interest in the future. Invest first and reap the fruits later. Not the opposite.

Author: anita
Date: 09-12-2004, 16:33

Ricardo, the problem is rather that it is too much money in football. Impossible for mid/mediocre teams to cope with. One idea for EU-countries may be to apply for EU-football-support for regional outskirts, just like in the agricultural sector.

And the idea of those inter-regional leagues comes popping up frequently. One problem is of course the relegation rules, the other - and vital point - is that there is so far not much interest, neither from the clubs nor the supporters. Two European tournaments per year (CL and UC)is obviously satisfying enough.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-12-2004, 17:02

Quite appart from actual chances of regional leagues being formed, in Red Star and Partizan clubs and their fans there is a konsensus about participating in a regional league. All of us would jump to the chance immediately. And also it is the same in neighbouring countries among their best clubs. The only question is why UEFA does not allow it. I do not know answer to it.But in some Balcan and East Europe countries (those whose clubs are nowhere in Eurocups) there is definitely an interest in a regional league.

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: viulo Date: 09-12-2004, 19:57	Macaskil - Porto hasn't proved that success doesn't last long - afterall, they won two consecutive european competitions and are now qualified for the last 16 of another one.

Author: ralfinho
Date: 09-12-2004, 22:39

S448250,
you asked what people in Munich thought after the draw. Well, we thought that Ajax is the side to beat in order to qualify for the next round and that it should be possible if Bayern brings its full strength on the pitch. Seems that this was realistic.

And - as I also have (at least) the half of my life behind me - you can wake me up at 3 a.m. and I can tell you the line-up of the Ajax team of 71-73.

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: anita Date: 10-12-2004, 02:09	ralfinho, what was your phone number again?

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: maciosgh Date: 10-12-2004, 02:44	Good one

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: maciosgh Date: 10-12-2004, 02:48	Off topic, what are we all doing up at 2:30 in the morning on THURSDAY?????? And I thought I'm the only one - silly me

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: ralfinho Date: 10-12-2004, 02:54	anita, it's not yet 3 a.m. maciosgh, you're not alone.

Re: AFC Ajax
Author: maciosgh Date: 10-12-2004, 02:57	I knew I could count on you :>