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Author: MichaelCollins
Date: 17-10-2005, 14:41
| Here, as we all know many people on here support relatively major teams from there own country. ANd since that means you have a perspective on Europe that i may never have (ie, you play in it, and Partick Thistle dont), I was wondering the following.
You know how most of these teams have rivals, right. And there are a few fans who wont cheer on there rivals in Europe. Well, I was wondering - is there any team in your country that everyone can get behind, that there would be nobody wishing ill on?
I think in Scotland the nearest example is when Raith Rovers went into Europe....cant think of anyone who wanted them to fail miserable there. |
Author: neill
Date: 17-10-2005, 15:07
Edited by: neill at: 17-10-2005, 15:09 | I can assure you that Dunfermline Athletic supporters did NOT enjoy Raith Rovers European experience! I do know what you mean though, I am a Hearts supporter and I went to watch Raith Rovers play Bayern Munich, the only time I have went along to watch another Scottish team in Europe. |
Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-10-2005, 15:18
| In Serbia it could be OFK Beograd. It is a club with tradition. It was formed in 1910 and was called BSK (Beograd Sport Klub). Between the two World Wars it was the best Yugoslav club (together with what is now Dinamo Zagreb - they had 5 national titles each).
After the II World war they changed their name a couple of times but it was always the same club. Nowadays it is much weaker than Red Star or Partizan so the fans of those two clubs do not hate it. On the contrary it seems to me that both fan groups would like OFK Beograd to be the third stong club of the league. I for one wolud not mind them winning the championship because Red Star - Partizan rivalry became too boring for words. We desperately need a new kid on the block. |
Author: apw
Date: 17-10-2005, 15:23
| I enjoyed seeing Millwall Play in Europe last season albeit a short adventure, although they are rivals of ours, it was good to see a smaller London side with a localised following play in the Uefa Cup |
Author: AlanK
Date: 17-10-2005, 19:38
| I'm sure there are those who disagree, but for me, Villarreal fits your description in Spain--they came out of nowhere to become a competitive team both nationally and internationally thanks to good administration and great coaching. While I never rooted for them until the last three years, their progress has left me open-mouthed with admiration, and I now root for them unless they are playing Rayo Vallecano or Real Madrid. |
Author: Aegis
Date: 18-10-2005, 06:11
| In France, we send regulary L2 teams in Europe. (Lorient, Chateauroux, Strasbourg ...). In those situations, we all wish them the best (knowing they won't go far anyway). |
Author: Nick
Date: 18-10-2005, 07:38
| In Bulgaria i would say that any team except: CSKA, Levski, Loko Plovdiv and Botev Plovdiv will have the cheers of all fans. A good example is Litex. Everybody enjoyed their success in Europe 2001 and this season. |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 18-10-2005, 16:36
| What Aegis said for France, is the same in Germany. Underdogs as Aachen last year or Mainz this year are supported throughout the country. Both played for the first time in Europe, and probably for the last time for many years. |
Author: nolan
Date: 18-10-2005, 18:47
| In Portugal teams outside the big three are generally cheered on, unless there's some kind of local rivalry (like Guimaraes-Braga). Between the major teams this is hardly the case, specially with the money coming from CL, it's hard to support a rival (even for ranking points) when those victories will earn them money to get better and better. |
Author: gidm
Date: 19-10-2005, 09:34
| In the Netherlands SC Heerenveen and AZ Alkmaar are liked by almost everyone |
Author: ferdi
Date: 19-10-2005, 13:41
| ralfinho is certainly not right concerning Aachen. The question was about rivals. Of course most german supporters will support any german team in Europe - unless it is their rival.
Aachen's traditional rival is FC Cologne. And Mönchengladbach (a team from the countryside that managed to have some temporary success in the 70ies of the past century) regards itself as a rival of both Cologne and Aachen (whereas both Aachen and Cologne regard Mönchengladbach as a parvenu).
And may I ask why he will not expect Aachen or even Mainz in the Europe in the future? Almost half of the Bundesliga reaches the European cups every year. So every team that is well established in the Bundesliga will reach as well Europe from time to time. |
Author: Gauss
Date: 19-10-2005, 18:55
| I see the situation in Germany slightly different from ralfinho. I agree that Aachen was supported throughout the country - maybe with the exception of Möchengladbach, who didn't even want to let Aachen play in their stadium, and their fans. Mainz is a different story. Many people feel that the hype around Mainz and their coach as the most funny and charming team is getting on their nerves. And many people also felt that the fair play spot wasn't deserved by Mainz as the German FA never published the fair play ranking. The only thing that was known was that Hannover had the fewest red / yellow cards, so many people thought Hannover should have been the fair play team. I think, that of the top teams that regularly play in Europe, Werder Bremen might be the one that many people sympathise with in the European competitions. Maybe also Stuttgart. Definitely not Bayern, Schalke, and Dortmund. Not Leverkusen (any more). |
Author: feelesh
Date: 19-10-2005, 19:07
| In England, local rivalry aside, I think many fans would like to see Middlesboro do well this year, this is primarily because they have never won anything.
Other 'harmless' sides in the EPL would be Charlton and newcomers Wigan. |
Author: Martijn_Lok
Date: 19-10-2005, 19:17
| In Netherlands: AZ Alkmaar and SC Heerenveen, because both teams are willing to play offensive (and that is what people like in holland)
Off topic: AZ Alkmaar is the only team who won the Dutch championship once the last 30 years beside the big three: Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 20-10-2005, 02:42
| ferdi, refering to Aachen: You are surely right about Mönchengladbach. I forgot to mention this rivalry on the Lower Rhine. Seems you are from that region. However, that's about some 100.000 people. Michael asked nationwide.
refering to future showups of Aachen and Mainz: Aachen plays in the 2nd division. Maybe they will promote this year. Mainz is in the relegation battle now. Usually, the 5-6 first-ranked teams play in Europe. Except cup finalists (as Aachen last year) or FP spots (as Mainz this year). Do you want to tell me that Aachen will be in the cup final again or that Mainz will take the fair play spot AND will be drawn in the lottery again in the forthcoming years? If yes, I offer you a bet.
Gauss, I'm a bit surprised about your remarks concerning the "Mainz hype". Could it be that you're from Kaiserslautern?
And, please don't slagger me, dear Gauss, as you refer to "most people supporting", then of course most people support FC Bayern. Exactly 10 million. Whereas the other 10 million don't. But they are divided. |
Author: ferdi
Date: 20-10-2005, 11:26
Edited by: ferdi at: 20-10-2005, 12:54 | I think there is only one team in Germany which has rivals nationwide, but even for this team most people will cheer as long as they play in Europe.
I expect Aachen to either reach the cup final or reach at least the UI cup once within the next five years. And there is as well a chance to reach the UEFA cup via the fair play competition - if Mainz can do so, why not Aachen? The odds for the Fairplay cup are three out of about ten as Germany typically passes the threshold.
You should not regard Aachen as the likes of Chateauroux, Millwall, or Union Berlin. Their results in Europe last year have allready indicated this. They should better be compared to the likes of OSC Lille, FC Sevilla or Bolton Wanderers. Teams that spent some time in second division and had their first appearance in Europe since 1995 last year (Sevilla) or their first apperance ever in 2001 (Lille) or this year (Bolton). But all are teams of high tradition in their country. |
Author: Gauss
Date: 20-10-2005, 13:06
Edited by: Gauss at: 20-10-2005, 13:08 | ralfinho, no, I'm not from Kaiserslautern, though I have to admit that the FCK is my favourite team. But being from northern Germany I don't care about local rivalries in the southwest. It's only that I've heard and read negative remarks about Mainz and their being hyped from many fans of different teams. And also this fair play thing. Although it might not be the fault of Mainz it didn't bring them sympathies from f.ex. Hannover or Bielefeld. I don't really know where I refer to "most people supporting". I agree that would be Bayern. I only wrote sympathize in European cups. And I think besides those who support Bayern there are only few that sympathize with them. I think many feel a bit of malicious joy if Bayern loses. I mentioned Werder because I think that even most Bayern or Dortmund fans wish them best luck in Europe. Even most Hamburg fans I suppose. |
Author: Kronsky
Date: 20-10-2005, 14:10
| Hi
In Poland Legia Warsaw and Wisla Krakow. Both try to qualify for CL! )
Best regards Kronsky |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 20-10-2005, 20:42
| ferdi, you're very optimistic for Aachen. In contrary to Bolton, Sevilla or Lille, Aachen did not play in the 1st division since 1970 or so. However, expectations are expectations. Nothing to argue about. Anyway, I would bet that Aachen will not play again in Europe within the next 10 years.
Gauss, seems that I misunderstood you. Sorry. I took your "many people sympathise with" as "many people support". Obviously, you meant non-supporters of the club that sympathise with it. In this sense, you may be right with Werder. On the other hand, when it comes to the "big matches" (quarters, semis, finals) most of the German football fans sympathise with Bayern again, I would say (Chelsea 2005, Real 2004, Valencia 2001).
And be it only for the reason that Bayern has to gather the ranking points in order to secure the 3rd CL spot for the Bundesliga. |
Author: ignjat63
Date: 20-10-2005, 20:47
| I've read somewhere that Stefan Effenberg was most hated (disliked?) German player ever (by German fans). Is that true? Did he really have that sort of character? And opposite, who was most liked German player ever? Beckenbauer? |
Author: EarlofBug
Date: 20-10-2005, 20:49
Edited by: EarlofBug at: 20-10-2005, 20:52 | For Israel, it must be Maccabi Petach Tikva this year (accept for their city rival Hapoel fans).
But, I think every team from Israel (accept the four big clubs: Maccabi Tel-Aviv, Hapoel Tel-Aviv, Beitar Jerusalem and Maccabi Haifa) that will participate in UEFA competitions, will be simpathised by all supporters.
Kronsky, do Legia Warsaw supporters hope that Wisla will get to CL? |
Author: Lyonnais
Date: 20-10-2005, 20:54
| Just a question to our German friends.
Ralfinho, I understood from what you wrote that 50% of German football fans support Bayern. That's huge. I've read an European survey some few years ago, that was very interesting, and as far as I remember, Real was the most appreciated team in Spain with around 35% of supporters, Marseille in France with 20% and ManU in England with 15%. I didn't know for Germany and I would be interested to know for Italy too.
Coming back to the original question, to know whether teams have a national support when they play European cups, I would say for the French clubs that it becomes less and less true. At least in the beginning of the competition. When i read the forum of marseille or paris, most fans expected Lyon to recive a big lesson from Real for example. Should we get to the semis this time, they might have some support but that's not granted. Because any success of Lyon would bring some shadow to their clubs.
As far as I am concerned, I am rather neutral. Meaning I am happy for the other French teams if they win, but not necessarily devastated if they lose. It depends on a lot of things and it depends on the opponent too. |
Author: kurt
Date: 20-10-2005, 21:04
| in belgium, club brugge and anderlecht are real rivals, and if they play in europe, a lot of people want that every belgian club goes winning in europe, even the chairman of anderlecht once said, i hope that club brugge wins the champions league or uefacup it will benefit also Anderlecht, and it is just the truth, club brugge buys more player in the belgian competition, the small clubs gets greater possibilities to become better, anderlecht wants a tougher competition, less clubs but better clubs, and in belgium everybody knows the value of winning a match, it means the higher belgium and the better for ALL clubs, the better for the belgian league |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 21-10-2005, 00:59
| ignjat, "hated" for Effenberg is too strong, but "most disliked" may be right. Of course, that has something to do with his character. He misbehaved very often (out of the pitch), in public as in private life, was very arrogant etc. etc. When he played in Munich (1998-2002), no Bayern supporter liked him personally. On the other hand, one has to recognise his achievements. Without Effenberg, Bayern would not have won the CL in 2001.
The most liked player ever in football regards is definitely Beckenbauer. He was - maybe together with Fritz Walter in the 50's - the by far best player Germany had ever. He was the coach of the national squad that won the WC in 1990. And he was at a high extent responsible that the WC 2006 came to Germany.
A few weeks ago, he had his 60th birthday. A main TV channel ran a 2 h gala show for that purpose on prime time at a Sunday evening. That could only be the case for Beckenbauer, not for Rummenigge, Matthäus or whoever.
Lyonnais, yes, the share of about 50% for Bayern supporters is sure and shown in a lot of opinion polls carried out from time to time. Of course, there are more "big" clubs with a nationwide base of supporters as Dortmund, Schalke and others. But their base is by far not as high as the Bayern one.
I think the difference to Spain etc. is that in Germany, there is only one "Bayern", i.e. one big club with a lot of silverware won. In Spain, you have Real and Barca. The Barca share should be (almost) as high as the Real one. So, your 35% for Real sounds plausible, take another 35 % (or 30%) for Barca and you have 30% for the remaining clubs.
Same for Italy. Juve has the highest share (I would estimate also about 30-40%), but there is Milan and Inter with also high shares. These are definitely higher than those of Schalke or Dortmund in Germany.
In England, it is even more balanced. There, we have Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs. All clubs with a high nationwide supporters base. Chelsea maybe to follow.
Refering to the support (or sympathies) of non-club-supporters, I think we have to distinguish between hard core fans (as in the forums you mentioned) and the broader number of people. When Bayern plays in a CL final, the hard core fans of i.e. Dortmund for sure will not support Bayern. But the "normal" man with sympathies for Dortmund will do so. |
Author: ferdi
Date: 21-10-2005, 14:29
Edited by: ferdi at: 21-10-2005, 17:41 | To ralfinho:
It seems to be a very surprising bet that you offer. If you look to the past, there were exactly 20 different German teams which played in Europe in the last ten seasons. From the teams that played in the Bundesliga in the season 1995/96, and were not relegated, only St.Pauli, Rostock, Cologne, and Düsseldorf did not play in Europe in the following years. And from the three promoted teams, only Bielefeld did not play in Europe since 1996. From the current Bundesliga, I would only consider Nuremberg as a candidate to bet on not reaching Europe in the 10 following years. |
Author: EvelKnievel
Date: 22-10-2005, 00:18
Edited by: EvelKnievel at: 22-10-2005, 00:20 | @ralfinho: you are a Bayern supporter and therefore you are obviously biased. But your figures are completely untrue.
1. When speaking about the rivalry between Aachen, Mönchengladbach and Cologne you mention the figure 100.000? You gotta be kidding! Mönchengladbach en Cologne have approx. 50 000 visitors each home game. Their fan base is therefore much higher than 100.000 alltogether.
2. 50% of Germany Bayern supporters? Ridiculous! Schalke and Dortmund together outnumber Bayern's fan base easily. Germany is a country with many clubs in the first division that have a huge tradition. HSV, Schalke, Dortmund, Cologne, Mönchengladbach, Kaiserslautern all have big fan bases.
3. "Same for Italy. Juve has the highest share (I would estimate also about 30-40%), but there is Milan and Inter with also high shares."
HAHAHAHAHAHA! This one even tops the rest of your statements. |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 22-10-2005, 15:44
| ferdi, I agree that every team that plays permanently in the Bundesliga can reach the ECs once upon a time. But I stress permanently. As you said "From the teams that played in the Bundesliga in the season 1995/96, and were not relegated". I have my severe doubts that Aachen will promote AND stay in the Bundesliga for the next ten years.
However, once again, we talk about speculations, so it's difficult to argue.
EvelKnievel (or EvilKnievel? ),
1) Firstly, I did not say 100.000, but "some 100.000". This means in English a figure between 100.000 and 999.999. Secondly, I refered to the Lower Rhine Region and not Cologne which, as far as my modest knowledge of German regional planníng tells me, is not a part of the Lower Rhine Region. Thirdly, what I wanted to say, obviously concerned my former statement when I said that Aachen was supported nationwide. Ferdi said that Aachen was not supported by supporters of their local rivals. Fully right. Then I dared to mention that the number of these supporters is quite low compared to the number of all German football supporters. Got it?
2) My statement of 50% apparently referred to Lyonnais' question concerning the shares of Bayern in comparison to Real, Man Utd, OM etc. This obviously does not concern "fan bases" in the narrow sense, but the supporters share as it is measured in opinion polls. ("What football team do you support" or "What football team do you like most"). For 10 to 20 years now, Bayern permanently reaches a share of about 50% in opinion polls of this kind.
Of course, Bayern also reaches the highest shares on questions like "What football team do you like less", namely 50% too. That's the way it is. Same as for Juve, Man Utd (at least until 1-2 years) etc.
3) The shares of Juve I mentioned refer to the same polls as in Germany. Seems that you have another view. Would you be so kind to tell me and the other contributors here? |
Author: ferdi
Date: 22-10-2005, 23:10
Edited by: ferdi at: 23-10-2005, 10:23 | There is no strict definition of what should be called "Lower Rhine" in Germany. However, there is no definition which would include Aachen, but exclude Cologne from this area. When talking about this area in a sense that includes Cologne and thus Aachen - maybe "Northern Rhineland" would be a better expression - then one should keep in mind that this area has about roughly ten million inhabitants. There are two more teams to mention from this area, Duisburg and Leverkusen. So as a very coarse estimation, each of those five clubs is the "natural" local Bundesliga team for approx. two million people.
Teams that correspond to Raith Rovers in Scotland would be Fortuna Düsseldorf, KFC Uerdingen, Fortuna Cologne. The first two played allready in Europe, and Fortuna Cologne was once a cup finalist, so at least could have played in Europe. Those are third, forth, and fifth division teams which have very few fans, and therefore are not regarded as real rivals for any team. |
Author: ralfinho
Date: 24-10-2005, 02:46
| Well, ferdi, I don't like to argue about "Lower Rhine region" or "Northern Rhineland" as this doesn't have a special impact on the issue.
I said - replying to Michael - Aachen was supported nationwide. You said Aachen was not supported by their local rivals. I said that's not the majority of Germany.
Should be possible to consense about it. |
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