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Author: Sasa
Date: 28-10-2005, 20:06
Edited by: Sasa
at: 28-10-2005, 20:07

Here's my personal top-50, alphabetically ordered

NOTE:Requirement for a club was at least 10 domestic
titles and tangible continental success, where the domestic success should
have been sustained over a long period of time, but not necessarily very
recently. Teams like Nottingham Forest (2 Champions Cups, but only 1 national
league title) and Estudiantes of La Plata (3 Copa Libertadores within 3 years
but not a great team at home in Argentina) have been excluded

Ajax (Amsterdam, Netherlands)
Al Ahly (Cairo, Egypt)
Anderlecht (Brussel, Belgium)
Arsenal (London, England)
Aston Villa (Birmingham, England)
Atletico Mineiro (Belo Horizonte, Brazil)
Barcelona (Barcelona, Spain)
Bayern Muenchen (Muenchen, Germany)
Benfica (Lisboa, Portugal)
Boca Juniors (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
Bologna (Bologna, Italy)
Canon Yaounde (Yaounde, Cameroon)
Celtic (Glasgow, Scotland)
Colo Colo (Santiago, Chile)
Corinthians (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
Cruzeiro (Belo Horizonte, Brazil)
Crvena zvezda (Beograd,Serbia)
Dynamo Kiev (Kiev, Ukraine)
Everton (Liverpool, England)
Ferencvaros (Budapest, Hungary)
Feyenoord (Rotterdam, Netherlands)
2Flamengo (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
Fluminense (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
Gremio (Porto Alegre, Brazil)
Hamburger SV (Hamburg, Germany)
Independiente (Avellaneda, Argentina)
Internacional (Porto Alegre, Brazil)
Internazionale (Milano, Italy)
Juventus (Torino, Italy)
Liverpool (Liverpool, England)
Manchester United (Manchester, England)
Milan (Milano, Italy)
Nacional (Montevideo, Uruguay)
Olimpia Asuncion (Asuncion, Paraguay)
Olympique Marseille (Marseille, France)
Palmeiras (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
Penarol (Montevideo, Uruguay)
Porto (Porto, Portugal)
PSV (Eindhoven, Netherlands)
Racing Club (Avellaneda, Argentina)
Rangers (Glasgow, Scotland)
Rapid (Vienna, Austria)
Real Madrid (Madrid, Spain)
River Plate (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
Santos (Santos, Brazil)
Sao Paulo (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
Sparta Praha (Praha, Czech Republic)
Sporting CP (Lisboa, Portugal)
Steaua (Bucuresti, Romania)
Tottenham Hotspur (London, England)

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: MichaelCollins Date: 28-10-2005, 21:36	You missed out Partick Thistle FC!

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: flob Date: 28-10-2005, 23:23	10 domestic titles ??? I didn't ckeck all clubs, but f.e. Hamburger SV has only 6 (afaik).

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Tower Date: 28-10-2005, 23:28 Edited by: Tower at: 28-10-2005, 23:52	So Ferencvaros is better then Roma and Chelsea?

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: eldaec Date: 29-10-2005, 10:03	Everton have acheieved tangible continental success? I must have blinked.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: anita Date: 29-10-2005, 12:39	Congrat, Sasa! I am impressed! Of all the nonsense I have read (and have written myself) on this Forum over the years, this is (at least) top five. A little depending on how much time you spent to put together this list The more time, the higher on the "nonsense list". Rapid Wien? Tottenham? (And not Rosenborg? )

Author: MichaelCollins
Date: 29-10-2005, 14:40

Hmm, the 50 greatest clubs of the world?

AC, Juve, Barca, Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern.

Rosenborg and Skonto Riga (for succesive league titles)

River Plate and Boca

Urawa Reds

Santos, Sao Paolo and Corinthians

Al Ahly and Zamalek

Suwon

America (Mex) and Guadalajara, Danubio(?)

I've come up with 20. People may baulk at Riga, but I put them in on the basis of them being head to head with Rosenborg for most successive titles (I think Skonto edges it?). I dont think I could think of 50, 20 was hard enough.

That however is mere opinion, and as such is open to ridicule.

*I withheld the temptation to add my mighty Jags to the list.

Author: Serge
Date: 30-10-2005, 11:25

I agree, these are the most succesful 50 clubs. If they have won more than 10 titles and at least one continental title, we can say they have a great history !!! I am a Steaua fan and I am glad to see it here. I also think Red Star deserves to be here too, maybe instead of Tottenham

anita,I agree, rosenborg is a great club, but have they won a continental cup ? I also dont understand about Everton, have they won sth. in europe ??? ...

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: MalcolmW Date: 30-10-2005, 13:32	Since you ask - yes, Everton won the Cup Winners' Cup in 1985. This information (like much else that is asked about) is available on this site. Simply use the Search button, which is next to the Forum button, to obtain Euro history of any club.

Author: anita
Date: 30-10-2005, 14:32

Serge, as you may have noticed, there was a smiley after my Rosenborg suggestion. Rosenborg is (still) an ideal for a lot of small/mediocre clubs from small/mediocre countries, because they have proven for years that it is possible for a small/mediocre club (economically) to be a regular and respected team in CL with sometimes astonishingly good results. If you rank the clubs relative international success according to their budget, Rosenborg will be up there.

But no, I would not rank them among the 50 best clubs in the world. Unless you insist, of course.

I am flexible, and can give in.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Red_Star Date: 30-10-2005, 16:40 Edited by: Red_Star at: 30-10-2005, 16:42	Serge,Red Star is on the list ! (Crvena Zvezda)

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Serge Date: 30-10-2005, 19:44	Red Star,sorry, I forgot to look for Crvena Zvezda, I looked just for Red Star anita, u r right, Rosenborg is an example of pure constance, an example for my favourite team Steaua too ...

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: ignjat63 Date: 31-10-2005, 09:53	same list can be found at http://www0.risc.uni-linz.ac.at/non-official/rsssf/rssbest/50greatclubs.html

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: SHEV Date: 01-11-2005, 07:29	Total crap. 10 Brazil teams in top 50?!

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: kurt Date: 01-11-2005, 19:18	the top ten in europe is for me, not seeing the last few years but the last 50 years real madrid,barcelona, juventus, ac milaan, bayern munchen, manchester united,arsenal,liverpool ajax,rosenborg

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Red_Star Date: 01-11-2005, 20:35	Rosenborg??? Are you crazy?

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: helvete Date: 01-11-2005, 22:33	kurt Arsenal?? Rosenborg?? What have they achieved? Benfica,Porto,Anderlecht and Mönchengladbach is way ahead of those teams.

Author: Ferdydurke
Date: 01-11-2005, 23:59

From: kstokker@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Karel Stokkermans)
Subject: My top-50 (was Re: OK!! HERE ARE 50 GREAT CLUBS!!)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 12:13:24 MDT

Here's my personal top-50, alphabetically ordered. Some of them are
probably open to contention; I listed a few teams I've also considered
at the bottom.

Some remarks: my basic requirement for a club was at least 10 domestic
titles and tangible continental success, where the domestic success should
have been sustained over a long period of time, but not necessarily very
recently. Teams like Nottingham Forest (2 Champions Cups, but only 1 national
league title) and Estudiantes of La Plata (3 Copa Libertadores within 3 years
but not a great team at home in Argentina) have been excluded. They are the only "major
continental trophy winners" missing.

I've included two African teams. Al Ahly, with over 20 Egyptian titles,
6 continental trophies (three of them champions cups) and an enormous
following should be self-explanatory. The other one is Cameroonian record
champions Canon Yaounde; only nine titles but the Cameroonian league is not that
old, and with 4 continental trophies (3 champion cups) the second most
successful African side. Someone suggested WAC Casablanca and Club
Africain but they haven't been that dominant.

Other inclusions that may need some justification: Santos may have had
only a few really brilliant years, but they have also a respectable number
of state championships in Sao Paulo (15 from 1935-84); Tottenham Hotspur
have only 2 league championships but also 3 european trophies and are
record winners of the FA cup - in England considered to be just as
important as the league; Bologna come in thanks to 7 league titles
won in a 40 year period and 2 Mitropa Cups (before the war a competition
with a similar standing as the Champions Cup now); Hamburg won only 6
German titles, less than Schalke or Nuernberg, but proved themselves in
Europe; and finally Olympique Marseille, though having won only 8 titles,
less than Saint Etienne, still make it as the only French club in the list
thanks to their European trophy, their 10 national cups (a French record),
and the dedication of their supporters.

In all, the list contains 30 European, 18 South American, and 2 African teams.

1.Ajax (Amsterdam, Netherlands)
2.Al Ahly (Cairo, Egypt)
3.Anderlecht (Brussel, Belgium)
4.Arsenal (London, England)
5.Aston Villa (Birmingham, England)
6.Atletico Mineiro (Belo Horizonte, Brazil)
7.Barcelona (Barcelona, Spain)
8.Bayern Muenchen (Muenchen, Germany)
9.Benfica (Lisboa, Portugal)
10.Boca Juniors (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
11.Bologna (Bologna, Italy)
12.Canon Yaounde (Yaounde, Cameroon)
13.Celtic (Glasgow, Scotland)
14.Colo Colo (Santiago, Chile)
15.Corinthians (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
16.Cruzeiro (Belo Horizonte, Brazil)
17.Crvena zvezda (Beograd, Yugoslavia)
18.Dynamo Kiev (Kiev, Ukraine)
19.Everton (Liverpool, England)
20.Ferencvaros (Budapest, Hungary)
21.Feyenoord (Rotterdam, Netherlands)
22.Flamengo (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
23.Fluminense (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
24.Gremio (Porto Alegre, Brazil)
25.Hamburger SV (Hamburg, Germany)
26.Independiente (Avellaneda, Argentina)
27.Internacional (Porto Alegre, Brazil)
28.Internazionale (Milano, Italy)
29.Juventus (Torino, Italy)
30.Liverpool (Liverpool, England)
31.Manchester United (Manchester, England)
32.Milan (Milano, Italy)
33.Nacional (Montevideo, Uruguay)
34.Olimpia Asuncion (Asuncion, Paraguay)
35.Olympique Marseille (Marseille, France)
36.Palmeiras (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
37.Penarol (Montevideo, Uruguay)
38.Porto (Porto, Portugal)
39.PSV (Eindhoven, Netherlands)
40.Racing Club (Avellaneda, Argentina)
41.Rangers (Glasgow, Scotland)
42.Rapid (Vienna, Austria)
43.Real Madrid (Madrid, Spain)
44.River Plate (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
45.Santos (Santos, Brazil)
46.Sao Paulo (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
47.Sparta Praha (Praha, Czech Republic)
48.Sporting CP (Lisboa, Portugal)
49.Steaua (Bucuresti, Romania)
50.Tottenham Hotspur (London, England)

Teams regretfully left out:

Athletic Bilbao, Austria Wien, Botafogo, FC Brugge, Fiorentina,
1.FC Nuernberg, Saint-Etienne, San Lorenzo, Schalke '04, Spartak
Moskva, Standard Liege, Torino, Ujpest (Dozsa), and Vasco da Gama.

-------------------------------------------------
From: mdpaserm@husc7.harvard.edu (Marco Paserman)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 15:03:36 MDT

Well done Karel! A really excellent list, and I thought it was impossible to
compile one. For the moment, I have only one major complaint: Torino (that
you put on your list of "regretfully excluded") should be on the list in
place of Bologna. They have the same number of titles won, but Torino can
probably boast the strongest team ever in the history of the Italian league,
the one that dominated the immediate post-war era, before tragically losing
all of its members in the Superga plane crash. I know that you made your
picks on the basis of national and continental success, but some other less
mechanical criteria should also be adopted; on the same grounds, I also
wonder why the great Honved of Puskas, Kocsis etc. is not in the list.

>Teams regretfully left out:[...>, Fiorentina,

I'm afraid that if there is another Italian team on this list it should be
Roma, not Fiorentina. After Juventus and Inter (never relegated) I think
that Roma is the only team that has been only one season in Serie B.
Still, I don't think that either belong on the above list.

------------------------------------------------------
From: kstokker@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Karel Stokkermans)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 95 20:45:39 MDT

Bologna is indeed the most debatable team in the list (as an Athletic
Bilbao supporter eloquently argued), and I mainly put them in because
I thought 3 Italian teams was a bit thin (compared to for instance the
number of English teams

and Bologna also has 2 Mitropa cups to its
credit. However, Torino's claims are indeed just as valid. As for Honved,
of course they had one very good side and are a dominant force in Hungarian
football, but the original poster asked for teams "expected to win throughout
their history" and in Hungary Honved are (historically) clearly second behind
"Fradi" (who also boast European success - of course, European competition
came to early (Mitropa cups) and too late (European cups) for Honved).

As for the guy claiming that Newcastle should be there based on a 10th place
in some obscure (but surely based on success in this season) World Soccer
ranking - sorry, but they are simply not there. I might as well include
Sheffield Wednesday (no offense to either team intended).

The one change I would now make to my original list is to include Athletic
Bilbao at the expense of Bologna.

=======================================================
From: dwindler@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Daniel Windler)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 20:14:37 MDT

Thank you! This is an excellent list and I'm happy that you listed the
criteria at the beginning of the post. Any criticism would really be
nit-picking, so I intend the only possible change I would make as an idea
rather than a criticism, because I doubt that anyone could have done a better
job compiling the list.

First, let me say I'm happy (although not surprised) that my team Boca is on
the list - I would have repeatedly flamed anyone who would have excluded
them. And, although I'm glad that San Lorenzo was considered, I think I'd
put them before Racing Club. I realize that under the criteria selected that
Racing would be the chosen one, on the basis of their Libertadores and
Intercontinental victory (San Lorenzo has never won a continental tournament).

However, in the last 30 or so years, Racing has become more or less of a joke,
and San Lorenzo, although winning few tournaments, consistently fights the
top spots of the championship. I would conjecture that if there were a UEFA
cup equivalent in S. America (I know there is now, but it just started, and
its not taken too seriously), San Lorenzo would have won its share of
tournaments. This is not a criticism, since it takes in depth knowledge
of the particular league to make such suggestions (and even with this,
I'm not sure most Argentines would agree with me).

I must also admit my bias, even though I am a Boca fan, I am from
Almagro (San Lorenzo's neighborhood) and have always had some sympathy
for that team. Also, for some reason, I hate Racing even more than River
Plate.

=======================================================
From: marcelo@apollo.HP.COM (Marcelo Weinberger)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 00:22:30 MDT

Karel, your list is indeed based on sound criterions and very balanced.
I think however that you should reconsider a few aspects. It's difficult
to compare clubs from different continents, and this is open to endless
debate, so let's accept your 30-18 division between Europe and South
America, which sounds reasonable to me. Your 18 South American clubs
include 10 from Brasil and 4 from Argentina, and this sounds much less
reasonable. Given that the two Uruguayan big clubs must be in any list
as well as Olimpia from Paraguay, and given that you may want to include
at least one representative from the Pacific coast (Colo-Colo is indeed
the best choice), you end up with 14 clubs to allot between Argentina
and Brasil. I understand that you wanted to include the most important
clubs from the 4 major Brasilian cities (football-wise). And possibly
you wanted to allot as many clubs to Sao Paulo as to Buenos Aires (4,
considering Avellaneda as part of the great Buenos Aires, and being
Santos located in the state of Sao Paulo). But the end result (10
against 4) is totally out of proportion considering these facts:

1) Argentinian football has been far more successfull than the Brasilian
one at the club level. It suffices to look at the Libertadores
history, although it doesn't go beyond 1960. Apart from factors
related to the strength of the local talent which are reflected in
the national teams, which are summarized below, you must also take
into account that the Argentinian league has attracted more and
better foreign players since the very beginning of professional
football in that part of the world (early thirties).

2) Taking into account about a century of football history, Brasil's
success is "relatively recent." I mean, Brasil started to be
something only in the late thirties, unlike Argentina, which has
consistently been a football power since the beginning of the century
until now. During that period, you can see a Brasilian superiority
only during some 25 years (say, 1955-1975, and 1990-95). Before 1955
Argentinian football was superior, and after 1975 until this decade
it has been either at a similar level or superior.

3) These facts are not reflected into WC's, where Brasil had a great
success, but if you look at the stats of Copa America, which cover a
longer period, you will see what I mean.

Add to these facts some awesome teams that San Lorenzo de Almagro had,
despite their relative continental success, some extraordinary players
like Sanfilippo, and the fact that I like them, and you will agree with
me that they should be included instead of one of the Brazilian clubs (I
would exclude Atletico Mineiro).

As for Europe, I think that 6 English clubs against 4 Italian and two
Spanish is totally out of proportion: Torino should definitely be in.

------------------------------------------------
From: rwnunes@soliton.rutgers.edu (Ricardo Nunes)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: 27 Jan 1995 13:22:59 -0500

Hi Marcelo! Being a Brazilian, I must say I think your points are mostly well
taken. I think that at the club level the 10/4 ratio between Brasil/Argentina
is far too unreasonable (even discounting the population and size-of-country
factors). You mention Atletico Mineiro and rightly so. They are always a
major force at the national level in Brasil but pretty much unheard of at the
international scene. They took part in the Libertadores 3 times with no
success whatsoever, and won the Comenbol once, that being a tournament of
very little impact, perhaps for being so new.

Neverthelees I would like to offer some of my opinions on the matter: You
should remember (and being Uruguayan you happly will), that Brasil was
probably the best team in the world in 1950. I know that Argentina refused
to play in 1950, and I have no knowledge of the strength of the Argentinian
side at the time. Assuming they were very good, I would find it difficult to
believe they were superior to Brasil (at the same level maybe). You don't
trash all European teams that cross your way, like Brasil did in 1950,
without having an excellent team (even at home).

Also, in 1938 Brasil was already a major international power, and I see
little substance in your claim that Argentina was much better than Brasil
until 1955.

As for another period you mention, the 1975-1990, I would add a piece of
information here. From 1970 to 1990 the statistics of Brasil x Argentina
confrontation favours Brasil heavily. There was even a period of years
without a single win by the Argies (I don't have the stats with me,
unfortunately).

Actually, when Argentina beat Brasil in the 1990 WC, it broke a long streak
of winningless games against Brasil.

Actually, Brasil was, after 1970, able to balance the history of the Arg x
Bra confrontation that was strongly favourable to Argentina before 1970.

At the club level I think Argentina and Uruguay (the latter until few years
back) have been much more consistent than Brasilian clubs. I see only three
Brasilian teams that can claim to having a consistent international
appearance: Santos (though in this case more history than present), Sao Paulo
and Cruzeiro. Cruzeiro won the Libertadores in 1976, was a runner-up to Boca
the following year (penalty kicks, Argentina seem to never loose one) and won
the Supercopa twice in a row: 1991-1992.

As for the Copa America stats, although I hate this kind of excuse, Brasil
don't always take it very seriously (which I think is regretful).

To my memory, since 1975 the only time Brasil sent a full strenght squad was
in 1989 ('cause it was at home). In 1977 (year may be wrong) a team formed
out players from Cruzeiro and Atletico lost to Peru in the final. In the last
one, out of the 22 players Brasil sent to Equador only 3 were in the WC
roster (Cafu, Zinho and Zetti). The others were not even subs.

------------------------------------------------------
From: kstokker@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Karel Stokkermans)
Subject: Re: My top-50
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 22:25:43 MDT

To save some time, I'll deal with several replies at once.

Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
> so let's accept your 30-18 division between Europe and South America,
> which sounds reasonable to me.

Okay - but please keep in mind that I did not set that division _a priori_;
I just happened to find 30 European and 18 South-American teams that came
close enough to meeting my criteria.

> Your 18 South American clubs include 10 from Brasil and 4 from Argentina,
> and this sounds much less reasonable.

I know. Argentina (and Uruguay) had much more continental success than
Brazil. The basic reason that the split turned out this way is that
I considered the Brazilian state championships to be not much below
a national championship for most leagues - at least for the four "big"
states, Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais, and Rio Grande do Sul.

I'll grant you that the latter two only have two decent teams in the
championship, so Gremio, Internacional, Cruzeiro and Atletico Mineiro
had relatively easy rides to make this list. (The same holds for
Celtic and Rangers; especially the latter enjoyed virtually no continental
success, but because of their domestic dominance they certainly merit an
inclusion in a list of teams "expected to win".) The Brazilian national
championship does not go back long enough for any of those teams to
have amassed ten titles (if I'm not mistaken, Flamengo holds the record
with six). The original poster asked for teams "used to success", and
Atletico Mineiro with their 34 or so state championship surely are that.
It's true that in their case I dropped the "international success" cri-
terion - but apart from Estudiantes or perhaps America Cali and Nacional
Medellin I don't see which other South American team can claim to have
been significantly more successful on the international level (with all
due respect for undeniably strong teams like San Lorenzo).

> Given that the two Uruguayan big clubs must be in any list
> as well as Olimpia from Paraguay, and given that you may want to include
> at least one representative from the Pacific coast (Colo-Colo is indeed

Well, it's not that I _wanted_ to include any team. Colo Colo have an
overwhelming amount of Chilean championships (compared to other Chilean
teams) and one Copa Libertadores. Cobreloa lost two Libertadores finals,
but that wouldn't have made them my second choice from Chile (had I chosen
to include a second Chilean team that is; probably Barcelona from Guayaquil
or Universitario Lima would have come before any other Chilean team).

> I understand that you wanted to include the most important clubs from the
> 4 major Brasilian cities (football-wise). And possibly you wanted to allot
> as many clubs to Sao Paulo as to Buenos Aires (4,

No, I didn't want to allot anything. Fifty is a rigid number - I decided
four Sao Paulo (state) teams would come into my top-50, just as four
teams from greater Buenos Aires.

> But the end result (10 against 4) is totally out of proportion

Certainly a top-100 would include no more Brazilian teams, and up to
4 (San Lorenzo, Newell's Old Boys, Estudiantes, Rosario Central) more
Argentinian teams. But a top-50 was asked, so I made a (personal) top-50;
and some Brazilian teams "just" made it into that top-50. But please
keep in mind that I didn't make the allocation countrywise - I made it
clubwise.

> and you will agree with me that they [San Lorenzo> should be included
> instead of one of the Brazilian clubs (I would exclude Atletico Mineiro).

Well, I'm no expert on South American football, obviously, and if enough
of you insist that San Lorenzo merits an inclusion in a list of this kind
more than say Atletico Mineiro, fine. But similar cases can, I believe,
be made for many clubs: Austria Wien had several great teams and boasted
Matthias Sindelar, they had their fair share of domestic success and won
the Mitropa-Cup twice in a time that Central European football was on
an internationally competitive level.

> As for Europe, I think that 6 English clubs against 4 Italian and two
> Spanish is totally out of proportion: Torino should definitely be in.

In my "basic" list only 3 Italian teams figured, and Bologna came in mainly
because I indeed thought that was a bit meagre. Similarly convincing
cases could have been made for Austria Wien, Athletic Bilbao, FC Brugge
or Schalke '04; of those, I would now include Athletic (instead of Bologna)
because of their record of Spanish cup wins. Of the English teams, I
think Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal are "unquestionable";
whether Everton's "always there", Villa's "early dominance and sustained
success" or Tottenham's "cup record and reputation for style" indeed merits
inclusion - I think so, but obviously opinions and tastes differ.

Daniel Windler wrote:

> First, let me say I'm happy (although not surprised) that my team Boca
> is on the list. I would have repeatedly flamed anyone who would have
> excluded them.

That's the main reason I included them :-).

> Racing has become more or less of a joke, and San Lorenzo (although
> winning few tournaments) consistently fights the top spots

I understand - but that's not exactly saying they are a team "expected
to win", like the original poster asked for. A list of "best teams" or
"most popular teams" would certainly look different from this one; even
if I were to compile it...

> Also, for some reason, I hate Racing even more than River Plate.

Aha :-).

Finally, Jose Angel Hernaiz-Cotrina:

> Sorry to say but you've forgotten quite a number of teams which should be
> there as well as including others which shouldn't be.

I'm sure.

> How can you forget teams such as Atletico Madrid?

Well, actually, I didn't. Although, admittedly, I didn't list them as
"regretfully omitted". Their domestic success is however limited to 8
championships and a few cups and can't compare to Athletic Bilbao's (which
would have been my third choice for a Spanish team). Okay, so they won one
Cup Winners Cup (so did KV Mechelen) and lost a Champions Cup final (as did
Malmo FF). That, to me, was not enough to include them in a top-50 of teams
"used to success". I'm sorry - I would have considered IFK Goeteborg ahead
of them.

> Please try to do a few changes.

The only one someone has managed me to convince of: Athletic Bilbao
instead of Bologna. You're welcome to try and convince me to include
Spartak Moskva, Atletico Madrid, or Borussia Moenchengladbach - but you'll
have to come with something better than the above.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: exile Date: 02-11-2005, 09:49	What on earth is Bologna doing in that list?

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Serge Date: 04-11-2005, 18:37	Maybe its his favourite team

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: eoinh Date: 06-11-2005, 13:26 Edited by: eoinh at: 06-11-2005, 13:26	or Tottenham Hotspur? Why are they in there?

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: wbg Date: 06-11-2005, 14:11	Everton? You should lay off the crack pipe for a bit.

Author: exile
Date: 08-11-2005, 13:23

Everton have won 9 English championships, which places them 4th
in the English rankings. Even since 1980 they have 2 titles, again
placing them 4th. Obviously their Euro record is not so good, but
at least they have won a trophy, unlike Bologna.

Tottenham, though not really deserving their place on domestic
or European Champions Cup/League record, have won 3 "minor" trophies
and have a remarkably good overall match record - won 59 drawn 19 lost 21.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Racing Date: 09-11-2005, 11:06	why are nottingham forest excluded from the list? for example, surely 2 european cups is worth 10000000000000 scottish, norwegian and anyother poor leagues title. Nottingham Forest is arguably the most successful club of all time, coming from a small city.

Author: Lunaris
Date: 09-11-2005, 12:28

here's my list of the top 50 in europe (as i don't know much bout the other continents)

very subjective of course and very recently too (i don't mind what some clubs did 100 years ago, that doesn't really matter for me)

Real ///// PSV
Barca ///// Feyenoord
Valencia ///// Basel
Deportivo ////// Brügge
Milan ///// Anderlecht
Inter ///// Dynamo Kiev
Juve ///// Shaktar
Bayern ///// Red Star
Borussia Dortmund
Olympique Lyon
Olympique Marseille
Arsenal ///// Partizan
Man U ///// Olympiakos
Liverpool ///// Panathinaikos
Chelsea ///// AEK
AS Monaco ///// Fenerbahce
Rosenborg ///// Galatasaray
Sparta ///// Besiktas
Spartak ///// CSKA Moskau
Lok ///// Celtic
Steaua ///// Rangers
Rapid Wien ///// Porto
Austria Wien ///// Sporting
Sturm Graz ///// Benfica
Ajax ///// Wisla
Maccabi Haifa
Slavia Prag
Artmedia :-)

feel free to criticise

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: ignjat63 Date: 09-11-2005, 14:41	What do these ///// mean? (I hope this is not one of my occasional stupid questions

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Lunaris Date: 09-11-2005, 15:29	i just didn't want to write a very long list (which is not very overseeable) , so i wrote 2 teams per line and made the ///// to divide them

Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-11-2005, 15:38
Edited by: ignjat63
at: 09-11-2005, 17:23

This is top 50 clubs in 1991-2005 list based on the topic AN ALL-TIME RANKING SUGGESTION that is now in Selected topics Archive (and Real is not at the top, he,he,he...)

Juventus FC 62.82
Real Madrid CF 60.51
FC Barcelona 57.47
Milan AC 56.10
Internazionale FC 50.50
FC Bayern München 48.20
Parma AC 43.73
FC Porto 43.24
Manchester United FC 42.14
AFC Ajax Amsterdam 41.16
Borussia Dortmund 37.70
Liverpool FC 33.20
Olympique de Marseille 32.90
Arsenal FC 29.77
Valencia CF 29.60
AS Monaco 28.19
Paris Saint-Germain FC 27.34
Chelsea FC 25.60
SS Lazio Roma 23.41
Feyenoord Rotterdam 23.41
Galatasaray SK Istanbul 21.39
Spartak Moscow 17.52
AS Roma 17.16
Bayer 04 Leverkusen 16.81
PSV Eindhoven 16.58
SV Werder Bremen 16.47
FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd 14.78
Deportivo La Coruña 14.67
Club Atlético de Madrid 14.33
Panathinaikos FC Athens 13.26
SL Benfica 13.08
FC Girondins de Bordeaux 12.90
Real Zaragoza 12.62
CSKA Moscow 12.20
AJ Auxerre 12.06
Sporting CP Lisboa 11.98
FC Schalke 04 11.90
Sampdoria UC 11.68
FC Dynamo Kyiv 11.56
RSC Anderlecht 11.10
Club Brugge KV 11.01
AC Sparta Praha 10.19
Brøndby IF 9.58
AEK Athens 9.30
Leeds United AFC 9.25
Lokomotiv Moscow 9.02
FC Steaua Bucuresti 8.89
Newcastle United FC 8.80
Celtic FC Glasgow 8.43
Olympique Lyonnais 8.40

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: vlad-tzepesh Date: 09-11-2005, 15:55 Edited by: vlad-tzepesh at: 09-11-2005, 15:56	Lunaris, I'm not going to comment on Artemdia, as it is clearly a joke. However, how come you have clubs like Wisla Krakow or Maccabi Haifa and you leave out AC Parma? They've won 4 European trophies in the previous decade. That has to be worth tons more than what most of the other clubs have achieved. They also played in the CL and were pretty decent in Serie A for most of the seasons.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: exile Date: 10-11-2005, 13:13	Well, that 1991-2005 ranking is rather strange if it doesn't have Real Madrid in 1st place - considering they have won 3 CLs in that time to Juventus just one.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 10-11-2005, 14:29

There are different criteria of course. Mine measures consistency (number of finals, semifinals, quarterfinals etc) rather than counting titles. So it gives part of the picture. The other part is number of titles won. If one compares overall achievemnts of Benfica and Nottingham Forest one must conclude that consistency is not at all unimportant. However considering both criteria (titles won and consistency) I agree that Real should be No 1 in the last 15 years. I just offered another way to look at it.

Author: EFC
Date: 19-11-2005, 21:40

Curious that people think that Bologna have never won a trophy. In fact, Bologna have won 7 Serie A championships. Only the Italian big 3 and Genoa have won more (I'm not sure why Bologna should be selected rather than Genoa or Torino, perhaps Bologna have had more cup success). In fact, Bologna's total of championships is the same as that of Roma, Fiorentina and Lazio combined. Perhaps it is the fact that Bologna's success is largely in the past, their most recent title was in the 1960s.

With regard to the 'lay off the crack pipe' comment about Everton, I might be biased but Everton have won 9 championships in one of Europe's most prestigous leagues. Only Liverpool, Arsenal, and Man Utd have won more, and until a decade ago only Liverpool were ahead of us. Still, I suppose we'd have been better off winning next to nothing but being a big name, big money glamour club like Chelsea, Roma or Lazio in which case doubtless we'd be more respected.

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Esbanjador Date: 20-11-2005, 15:10	There should be a criteria to rank teams. And a criteria can be extremely dubious. On the other hand history is part of a club and you cannot delete trophies awarded in the past. Can we consider Real Madrid the number 1 just because their 5 first European cups were won 50 years ago?! Of course not!

Author: boxa
Date: 26-11-2005, 17:22

Great effort.. thanks.. but just a few remarks about the African clubs.. Canon Yaounde (Cameroon) are a good team, but you can't say it's the 2nd in Africa.. NO WAY! The top 2 are clearly Ahly and Zamalek of Egypt.. without doubt.. here's why:
Ahly: 30 (not 20) local league titles and over 30 cups + other old local titles (our Egyptian league is by far the strongest in Africa, although not to be compared to major European leagues), 8 (not 6) African titles (4 league and 4 cup), 2 Afro-Asian titles, 1 African super cup, some 25 million fans, 99-year history

Zamalek: 11 local league titles, 20 cups, 6 African titles (5 league and 1 cup), 2 Afro-Asian titles, 3 African super cups, over 10 million fans

After those 2 you can talk about Asante Kotoko (Ghana), Esperance and Etoile (Tunisia), Canon Yaounde (Cameroon) or Asec Abidjan (Cote d'Ivoire)

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Ferdydurke Date: 26-11-2005, 17:48	Boxa, my post is a "copy and paste" from rsssf, and the date is Jan-95

Re: The 50 Greatest Clubs of The World
Author: Luka Date: 29-11-2005, 01:05 Edited by: Luka at: 29-11-2005, 01:07	@Sasa, according to your criteria you should add to your list from Polans Gornik Zabrze: 14 domestic titles, CWC final in 1969/70 (lost to Man City), EC quarter finalist in 1968

Author: mapfumo
Date: 30-11-2005, 23:56

Period 1976 - 2005 (last 30 years)
Top 50 of Europe :

1 Real Madrid CF Esp 2.967,56
2 FC Bayern München Ger 2.959,86
3 Juventus FC Ita 2.947,43
4 FC Barcelona Esp 2.821,05
5 FC do Porto Por 2.687,67
6 Ajax Ned 2.548,30
7 PSV Ned 2.505,76
8 RSC Anderlecht Bel 2.465,02
9 Liverpool Eng 2.412,25
10 AC Milan 1899 Ita 2.395,18
11 Manchester United Eng 2.382,46
12 SL Benfica Por 2.312,78
13 Internazionale FC Ita 2.289,67
14 Club Brugge KV Bel 2.156,15
15 FK Dynamo Kyiv Ukr 2.137,52
16 Arsenal Eng 2.128,03
17 Feyenoord Ned 1.968,89
18 AS Roma Ita 1.958,93
19 FK Spartak Moskva Rus 1.929,51
20 Sporting CP Por 1.920,66
21 SV Werder Bremen Ger 1.880,64
22 Valencia CF Esp 1.873,81
23 Hamburger SV Ger 1.853,36
24 Celtic Sco 1.838,97
25 Rangers Sco 1.832,18
26 AS de Monaco FC Fra 1.810,24
27 BV Borussia Dortmund Ger 1.804,51
28 FK Crvena Zv.Beograd SeM 1.801,41
29 Atlético de Madrid Esp 1.788,04
30 Panathinaikos Athina Gre 1.762,31
31 VfB Stuttgart 1893 Ger 1.744,57
32 Olympiakos SF Pireas Gre 1.740,19
33 Paris Saint-Germain Fra 1.707,03
34 AC Sparta Praha Cze 1.705,25
35 FC Nantes Atlantique Fra 1.626,34
36 1. FC Kaiserslautern Ger 1.619,66
37 AEK Athina Gre 1.599,87
38 Bor. Mönchengladbach Ger 1.590,29
39 Girondins Bordeaux Fra 1.584,42
40 Athletic de Bilbao Esp 1.574,10
41 Bayer 04 Leverkussen Ger 1.564,21
42 FC Steaua Bucuresti Rom 1.563,78
43 1. FC Köln Ger 1.551,72
44 R Standard de Liège Bel 1.551,24
45 SS Lazio Ita 1.543,64
46 Real Sociedad FC Esp 1.493,96
47 FK Partizan Beograd SeM 1.484,95
48 FK Austria Wien Aut 1.482,64
49 HNK Hajduk Split Cro 1.479,76
50 Galatasaray Istanbul Tur 1.471,75

Based on results in national league, cup, European Cup football and InterToto Cup. We compare on EFS only European club teams, so we didn't add teams from outside Europea

European Football Statistics