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| Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 15-04-2006, 14:17 | I know that wales has 2 cups.In one final you have Bangor Vs i forgot what team, and in the other TNS face Port Talbot.Which of these cups counts for a UEFA Cup place?Because if it is the second,TNS are champions and Port talbot would get a UEFA cup place even if they lose. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: Giuseppe
Date: 15-04-2006, 14:33 | This is off-topic, but I find it sad that the best Welsh clubs - Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham - choose to play in the English lower divisions... |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 15-04-2006, 14:42 | Are you talking about Cardiff City?Because i know that they have played several Eurocup semifinals. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: Giuseppe
Date: 15-04-2006, 14:52 | Yes I was talking about Cardiff City among others. Again off-topic, but I can't understand why teams that could easily play in Europe every year prefer to play in the lower divisions of another association. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 15-04-2006, 15:29 | Again off-topic, maybe they do not like the level of the Welsh League.In my opinion, the only competitive side is TNS (maybe Rhyl) and i can understand why they moved. Celtic and Rangers wanted a move to premiership because of the lack of competition. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-04-2006, 17:07 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 15-04-2006, 17:09 | On topic: The first one you mention (final: Bangor City - Rhyl FC) is the Welsh Cup. The 2nd is the Welsh League Cup. So either Bangor or Rhyl will qualify for the UEFA-cup together with the number 2 of the league. PS: I see they even have a 3rd Cup (FAW Premier Cup). |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 15-04-2006, 20:34 | Too bad for Port Talbot..Rhyl is also in competition for spot 2.By the way,who decides who gets a UEFA cup spot in situations like this:multiple cup competitions.Is it UEFA or that national association. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: TimJohnson
Date: 15-04-2006, 21:51 | The Premier Cup is a tournament by the Welsh Section of the BBC.The Welsh Cup is one of the oldest football tournaments and is for clubs who play in the Welsh system.It is only the winners/finalists who can qualify for Europe. The League Cup is for those who play in the Welsh Premier League. The League of Wales only came into being on August 15 1992 and some clubs decided to stay in England. These clubs cannot represent Wales in UEFA competitions and to some are regarded as English clubs although they are situated in Wales. By the way England have said they will not nominate them if they win the English Championship/Cup/League Cup or other European spot |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 16-04-2006, 10:50 | @bigriazor A federation can ask UEFA if they can nominate the winner of a "2nd" Cup in stead of a club from the league, but I think this can only be the case for federations which have 6 or 7 spots for CL/UEFA-cup. And there will have to be at least 1 team that qualifies through the league for UEFA-cup. Only England and France have a UEFA-cup spot for their "2nd" Cup (League Cup and Coupe de la Ligue). |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 16-04-2006, 14:29 | Yes, the Welsh clubs have been part of the "english" league system for many, many years. Up until the formation of the FAW the clubs had a similar status to Vaduz in Switzerland and played in the English league system (Swansea were a first division club in the 1980s) but were able to qualify for Europe (Cup Winners Cup)through the Welsh Cup. Wrexham, Swansea, Cardiff City and Newport County, who went bust in the eighties and are now playing in the Nationwide South (two levels below the football league), all qualified for Europe in this way. As a sidenote, the odd English club near the Welsh border (Shrewsbury Town is one that springs to mind) also played the Welsh Cup but were not allowed into Europe if they happened to win it. On the formation of the FAW the clubs already playing in England above a certain level (I think Conference level but may be wrong) were allowed to stay there but their path to Europe through the Welsh Cup was removed. I'm seen it said several times that the Welsh clubs are unable to qualify for Europe through the English league either, but I would be surprised if this were true. European qualification has been a fairly distant prospect for any of the Welsh clubs for some time so any serious discussion of "what happens if" hasn't really been necessary. This might change if Cardiff ever enters the Premier League. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: TimJohnson
Date: 16-04-2006, 14:45 | Badgerboy there was a discussion on this in the Welsh papers earlier this season.I also have contacts in Welsh football and can confirm they have been told by the English FA they would not nominate a club affiliated to the Football Assoc of Wales to represent England in any European tournament and infact Lennart Johannsson touched upon this when he was recently in Wales. As explained before they do no play in the Welsh pyramid system and therefore cannot represent Wales. Although supporting Welsh football I am also a Celtic supporter and this is one of the reasons I do not want them playing in England. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 16-04-2006, 16:52 | @Forza-AZ That is really stupid.You have the Wigan case in which they will not go to UEFA cup next season because the losing finalist doesn't get that spot, in case they are beaten by a UCL-qualified team.In their other cup-competition i know that the cup finalists gets a UEFA cup spot if they are beaten by an UCL qualified team.UEFA should set some rules so that we do not see cases like this.In england right now nobody knows who the uefa cup spots will go to.it depends on who will win the cup,middlesbrough's and arsenal's perfomances etc... |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: ice_ball
Date: 16-04-2006, 16:59 Edited by: ice_ball at: 16-04-2006, 17:02 | Need documentation on Weals Athough I prefer latin football I watch everynow and than some PL.I used to like Man U. in the 95-02. Now they need a better mid. A brain in the squad. I know is off off topic b/c I don't know anything about welch football. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 16-04-2006, 17:50 | bigriazor "That is really stupid" I'm not quite sure what it is you find stupid. "You have the Wigan case in which they will not go to UEFA cup next season because the losing finalist doesn't get that spot, in case they are beaten by a UCL-qualified team" The losing league cup finalist NEVER gets a European spot. The League Cup winner only gets a European spot if they fail to qualify for either European competition through other means. "In their other cup-competition i know that the cup finalists gets a UEFA cup spot if they are beaten by an UCL qualified team" That is correct. "UEFA should set some rules so that we do not see cases like this.In england right now nobody knows who the uefa cup spots will go to.it depends on who will win the cup,middlesbrough's and arsenal's perfomances etc..." UEFA are talking about changing the rules so that only the National Cup Winners qualify for the UEFA Cup. Losing finalists would miss out. This is a move I am in favour of but conversely will mean even less clarity until the end of the season about where you must finish in the league to get into Europe. This season, for example, West Ham or Boro are guaranteed European football just by getting to the Cup Final and the seventh placed team know they miss out. Once (if?)the new rules are adopted the seventh placed club will be sweating on the result of the Final. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, as long as rules are clear at the start of the season - as it is in England now. Fifth place gets you into Europe, sixth or seventh MIGHT depending on what happens in the cups. Some clarity is needed, in my opinion, on what happens if a team wins the CL but finishes outside the European qualification places. Forza and I have a different opinion on this, which wouldn't be possible if those rules were clearly stated. Ice-Ball. No need to post on a subject you know nothing about. Your talk of "Weals" and the "Welch" (Wales and the Welsh) gave me a chuckle though! |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bigriazor
Date: 16-04-2006, 19:34 | Badgerboy I find stupid that the league cup loser doesn't get a UEFA cup spot if beaten by a UCL qualifield team while the FA Cup loser does.Aren't these equal-value competitions?Have the same format but not the same outcome.And as you sayed the situation with Arsenal UCL winners and Middlesbrough UEFA Cup winners would be a very difficult one.What i mean is that who gets what spot if arsenal are outside UCl or even outside Europe.And if Middlesbrough get in the FA final?Too confusing. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 16-04-2006, 21:31 | bigriazor said: "Too confusing." UEFA regulations may not be written in a crystal clear language, but the English FA is the champion in not understanding rules that are more or less clear to everyone. I cannot suppress the feeling that they don't want to understand ... maybe even think they can get an advantage ... just like last year. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 17-04-2006, 13:58 | To answer bigriazor - no I don't think the League Cup and FA Cup are of equal value. I think the levelling up of the rules so that the runners-up of neither competition qualify is a good thing. Personally, I would downgrade the League Cup and - if UEFA allowed - give an Intertoto place to the winner (still nothing to the losing finalist though). Bert - not sure if you are being a bit hard on the FA or not. Last year I think they were right to do what they did - exploiting a mistake by UEFA in not guaranteeing their Champions a place. This year I can't see they have any case in getting an extra place from Middlesbro' reaching the Cup Final. Maybe the query has arisen from UEFAs stated plan to disqualify cup losing finalists - but if that's not coming in this year then it can't be relevant to Boro. I do still think the situation with the CL winner finishing outside European qualification is still open to debate: "This will only increase the number of places that an association has in the UEFA competitions if the title-holders do not qualify for these competitions through their domestic league..." This situation is more likely to come to reality with Villarreal than Arsenal and if I was the Spanish FA I'd certainly be lobbying for an extra UEFA Cup place should Villarreal triumph in Paris but finish below sixth in the league. I would do so even if a Sevilla victory in Eindhoven (again matched with a below sixth finish) meant five Spanish teams in the UEFA Cup. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 17-04-2006, 16:25 Edited by: bert.kassies at: 17-04-2006, 16:30 | badgerboy, maybe you're right about the FA. It's UEFA who is to blame. Not because the rules were not clear ("if an association chooses not to enter the CL title-holder, so be it"). It was a stupid but clear rule. No need to change the rules during the game. But OK, that was the past. Period. Furthermore you are right about the unclear situation around the CL title-holder. Not because the rules are not clear, but because the rules are still not published! PS: did you notice the plural form in "UEFA competitions"? In my view this should be read as the sum of places in CL and UC. Not so clear  |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: cska
Date: 17-04-2006, 16:51 | Just to add some to the recent posts... What happens to Spain spots in CL and UC if Villareal wins CL and arrive 7th in La Liga and simultaneously Sevilla wins UC and finishes 8th ? And what if at the same time Real Madrid finish 4th ? Will UEFA leave Real out of CL or they will again write the rules after the season ? Also, will UEFA assign a new spot for Spain ? Because Villareal and Seville will have to take one each if they fail to qualify through La Liga. |
| Re: Welsh Cups | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 17-04-2006, 19:41 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 17-04-2006, 19:46 | @cska What happens to Spain spots in CL and UC if Villareal wins CL and arrive 7th in La Liga and simultaneously Sevilla wins UC and finishes 8th ? And what if at the same time Real Madrid finish 4th ? UEFA said there won't be 5 clubs in the CL any more, so in this case Real Madrid will miss CL and have to do with UEFA-cup. Sevilla will take the TH-spot so this will give Spain an extra spot. UEFA rules state that the UEFA-cup spots go to the teams finishing directly behind the teams that qualify for the CL. In this case the numbers 1,2,3 and 7 qualify for the CL, so that will result in UEFA-cup spots for the Cup Winner and the numbers 4 and 5. And an extra for Sevilla as TH. So the number 6 will miss out and will have to do with Intertoto. I find this rule very clear and can't see an appeal against this having success, because there is no rule that Spain's number 6 gets a UEFA-cup spot, only that the best 2 not qualifying for the CL get a UEFA-cup spot. In this special circumstance that are the numbers 4 and 5. |