You are not currently logged in

xml No replies possible in the archive
question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: winky
Date: 16-05-2006, 21:26
tottenham and west ham have an identical co-efficient... if they were to be numbers 40 and 41 on the seeding list, which one would be seeded?

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 16-05-2006, 21:33
For every country the Cup WINNER is the team with the highest priority in UEFA Cup, with the condition that the team actually WINS the Cup. If the team qualifies as cup losers, it has the lowest priority.

The answer is: Tottenham.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: winky
Date: 16-05-2006, 21:56
thankyou... as a spurs fan that is good news... it looks like tottenham and west ham could be very much on the seeding borderline

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 16-05-2006, 21:57
@executor

The loser of the final doesn't always have the lowest priority. It depends on the position in the league. In this case Tottenham finished higher than West Ham, so Tottenham will be 40th in the example above and West Ham 41st.

You could also have a situation in which the losing Cup finalist finished 5th and another team 6th. In that case the losing Cup finalist would have a higher priority than the 6th placed team.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 16-05-2006, 22:08
@Forza-AZ

Yes, I didn't express myself corectly . Correct is: if there is no Cup WINNER then the order of teams is that from the championship.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: ferdi
Date: 16-05-2006, 22:42
Edited by: ferdi
at: 16-05-2006, 22:44
This sounds logical, but have you any sources which confirm this interpretation? The priority of teams from one country is important if the teams start in different qualification rounds. But for seeding issues the team ranking is used. Is it sure that the team priority is as well used as a tie breaker if two teams from the same country have the same number of ranking points? I find nothing about that in the UEFA regulations.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 17-05-2006, 08:38
If 2 or more teams from the same country have the same coefficient the only way to sepparate them is to look at the final standings in their league.

Another question is: if two or more teams from different countries have the same coefficent, is country ranking the decider? I can't think of anything else, but i just want to be sure. This is a situation likely to happen in UC QR1 in Southern-Meditteranean, where teams from Cyprus and Slovenia have the same coefficient and are on the seeding threshold.

BTW: Ricardo, I think there's a mistake on your Uefa Cup prediction sheet. You have AEK Larnaka as Cup winner, but on Bert's site (and rsssf) it's APOEL.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Nick
Date: 17-05-2006, 08:47
executor: Actually country ranking shouldn't applicable too because Cyprus and Slovenia have exactly the same country coefficient.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 17-05-2006, 09:15
Edited by: executor
at: 17-05-2006, 09:24
@ Nick

Since the access list is based on country rankings from last year, I expect that the country coefficients are also from last year. But it's still an interesting question: what happens when two teams from different countries have the same coefficient and their associations are also equal on points? Coins maybe? It wouldn't be the first time these "elaborate instruments" have been used as decider in football.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Agent327
Date: 17-05-2006, 09:17
I'm not sure (maybe someone can shed a light on this) but if 2 (or more) teams from different countries are having exactly the same coefficient, the decider is the most recent score (highest score on top) If that's the same you'll take the year before that etc.

Greetz,
Agent327

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Nick
Date: 17-05-2006, 09:26
agent: Highest team score or country score? Very interesting question indeed. I guess nobody from the seeded teams wants Omonia in the middle of july.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: ferdi
Date: 17-05-2006, 09:39
Edited by: ferdi
at: 17-05-2006, 09:58
{i>If 2 or more teams from the same country have the same coefficient the only way to sepparate them is to look at the final standings in their league.{/i>

Well, it could as well be alphabetical order, the age of the manager, club colours, or... last but not least you can always toss a coin.

If the final standings in their league would be the tie breaker for seeding issues, then I would expect this to be mentioned in the official regulations. Otherwise I would expect a draw.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 17-05-2006, 10:01
Edited by: executor
at: 17-05-2006, 10:04
In last year's UEFA Cup regulations ({a href="http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/UEFACup/Format/newsId=316965.html"> here {/a>) it sais in Annex II, page 38 that:
{i>
"9. In the case of equal coefficients, the UEFA Administration will take a final decision, taking into consideration the individual coefficient of the most recent season." {/i>

This means the Agent327 is right. And also Omonia has advantage over Slovenian teams. The seeded teams can sleep in peace .

But West Ham and Tottenham scored 0 points in European Cups in the last 5 years => all there last 5 coefficients are equal. Then there is also:
{i>
"12. The UEFA Administration will take final decisions on any matters not provided for by these provisions."{/i>

So it's up to them. But league standings look the most plausible solution to me.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: exile
Date: 17-05-2006, 10:13
Sure - but since rankings are for the last 5 seasons, shouldn't league
positions over the last 5 seasons decide the positions, not just the last season?

Actually this situation must be very common, as most of the clubs
in the UEFA qualifying rounds from the same country have the same
coefficient.

On the other hand - the precise position in the rankings only makes a difference when you are on the borderline between seeded and non-seeded.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Nick
Date: 17-05-2006, 10:45
Actually the situation is not that common. Last year there was only 1 case. Longford was seeded in QR1 while Cork City with the same coefficient was unseeded. Both teams were from Ireland so i guess it was based on their league positions as Longford was CW and Cork was UC2.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: executor
Date: 17-05-2006, 11:42
I've found 2 other cases:

2004/2005 CL QR1

last seeded - KR (Isl) 1.099
first unseeded - Sliema (Mal) 1.099

Island scored more points in the previous season than Malta (both teams had only country coefficients).

2000/2001 UC R1

last seeded - Slovan Liberec (Cze) 14.562
first unseeded - Petra Drnovice (Cze) 14.562

Both hadn't scored points in the previous 5 years and Slovan was Cup Winner.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Ricardo
Date: 18-05-2006, 10:52
executor, you are right. I don't know how I came to it - maybe I was watching an intermediate score. I have corrected it, thanks.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Nick
Date: 18-05-2006, 11:07
Edited by: Nick
at: 18-05-2006, 11:09
Based on this cypriot teams with country coefficient should be seeded at the expense of slovenian teams with country coeffient. In this case it only applies to Omonia, Publikum and Koper as possible UEFA Cup participants. Domzale and Nova Gorica have a higher coefficient. Slovenia last season = 2.333 while Cyprus is 3.000.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 18-05-2006, 13:50
i dont know why yourself and the guys above are worrying to mutch about seedings as w/ham and spurs will be out immediately.
But this is not all bad news guys as it will let you all watch CELTIC on the telly.
What do you think?

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 14:19
Well, I take that on the chin!

It will certainly be interesting next season.

WHU - they were only recently promoted; but they have good players. other threads comment on how English debutants in europe usually do BADLY

Spurs - again, they're not exactly recent Euro stars, but Jol has made a real effort to improve them and MAYBE they could do WELL....

Newcastle - again, on other threads it's commented they are back-door into Europe, but they have a good relatively recent UC record; if they get through via the IT they could have a good run; meaning they've turned round in a just 1 season.

and now CELTIC - how many seasons of heartbreak and being nearly there have they had!! Unbelievable they have never qualified from the CL GS yet, and then, so close in the UC final. One of these years they surely will get at least into last 16. Well - they won the SPL very easily in the end, and a Rangers team that DID get through the GS was nowhere. So, just hope things run Celtic's way in the season coming.

PLUS - how will Hearts do as the debutant non old-firm team in CL, will Gretna last a round (they have to play at fir park, don't they?)? Can Arsenal rebuild after such disappointment? Man U and Liverpool underachieved badly in Europe last season? No way will Chelsea be happy not having even reached the CL final yet. Plenty to look forward to....

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:16
What you said is true but remember celtic were the FIRST team in the UK to win the chams cup, and every player a scot, thats just the way strachan is building the side.
Good luck to all the sides anyway.
PS hearts will take a few teams by surprise.
Its a mini version of Romanov at chelsea.
Cheers.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:19
Listen you bunch of twats, West Ham, Spurs, you lot seriously don't these two shite teams (AND THAT'S A COMPLIMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE SHITE),will get into the group stage do you? aahh,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,. I'm not a Celtic supporter but I'll tell you this Celtic will wipe your arses. You bunch of Nigels think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread don't you? Well answer this then, how come all your top managers are Scottish, French, Portuguese and Spanish and your teams are full of non-Nigels, GET REAL YOU BUNCH OF FANNIES.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:24
It says on another thread I was just old enough to remember 1967, and because of that I have supported (to use badger's proper word- 'followed' as I am not Scottish) Celtic ever since; and I would dearly love to see them up there again.

I think it's interesting to know if that sort of tradition from 40 yrs ago (so not affecting the people playing /managing the club personally) nevertheless has a positive effect on performance (I mean there is a continuity at the very least within the supporters); there are too few examples, but we know debutant finalists don't do brilliantly; whereas somehow Liverpool felt last yr they were 'back where they belonged'. And these small sychological advantages / disadvantages (again, everone knows Celtic have the best supporters) can make a difference when matches are so finely balanced.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:24
WHAT'S THE STORY WITH YOU MARK RICE, ROMANOV IS AT HEARTS NOT CHELSEA. THERE'S ONLY ONE BIG NAME TO WATCH OUT FOR NEXT SEASON AND IT'S THE NEW GOD............................................................................
................................................................................
.....PAUL LE GUEN

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:31
Hi guys! This thread is very funny (I mean that genuinely) and also I think it's great that there seem to be 3 good Scottish teams around at the moment, but we're all supposed to be good boys and girls on this forum and discuss co-efficients and stuff; but sign on to forum 2 (follow the link from bert's main page) for the normal slagging each other off stuff. I speak as a newbie myself.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: Nick
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:06
Can we get back to the topic plz Celtic and Hearts are not playing in the UEFA Cup and have nothing to do with the seeding.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:15
I love it when a bunch of intellectuals join the forum...

"every player a scot, thats just the way strachan is building the side".

Hartson, Zurawski, Petrov, Nakamura, Balde, Sutton, Varga, Dublin, Keane, Lennon, Boruc, Camara, Virgo.

No imports at all...

And as for: "West Ham, Spurs, you lot seriously don't these two shite teams (AND THAT'S A COMPLIMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE SHITE),will get into the group stage do you? aahh,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,. I'm not a Celtic supporter but I'll tell you this Celtic will wipe your arses".

Not next season they wont - not unless Celtic are already giving up on anything better than a UEFA Cup place after the Group Stage. By which time Tottenham or West Ham will have to have been good enough to pass their own Group Stage in order to play them...

Aside from that - polite comments (or witty putdowns only) on this forum please. We're all (or all were) grown-ups on here.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:36
You beat me to it, Badgerboy.

Hopefully Celtic will get through the GS, but I think at the moment they would be weaker than English CL teams.

Hearts/ Rangers v WHU/ Spurs / Blackburn / Newcastle would be potentially mouth-watering ties.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:44
Aye right, all grown-ups, with a grown up name like 'badgerboy. I bet you were given that name cos you wer caught shagging a badger.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:47
English clubs tend to do badly against Scottish clubs.

I hope Hearts do well. If they end up in the UEFA Cup (which wouldn't surprise me) they have a chance to get to the Group Stage and do OK. The only thing that would worry me is the stability of Mad Vlad. With all his talk of conspiracies and liking for picking the team he seems the sort to throw his toys out of the pram and move his money elsewhere if things should start to go wrong (or even wrong by his definition) on the pitch.

There's also a doubt about them being able to use Tynecastle for European fixtures - which would be detrimental to their cause and seems a case of UEFA setting the standards bar too high.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:53
do you have stats on Eng v Scottish clubs in Euro competitions?

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:55
No, just memories...

I'm probably just thinking of Celtic knocking out both Blackburn and Liverpool a few years back.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 18:00
Edited by: panda
at: 18-05-2006, 18:33
Well, I too think Scottish sides do well - obviosuly they are really up for it against English ones. (I'm just too lazy to go trawling through the results), plus of course it's less foreign for Scottish sides to go to England rather than countries a long way away.

Hearts should be expected to win in QR2, but will need to avoid the big boys in QR3 and likewise they will have to do extremely well to pass the GS{ if they get there - so UC is more likely, I agree.

Looked through bert's database:

I may have mised something, but it's pretty thin really-
celtic beat Blackburn twice and had 1w 1d against liverpool
more recently Man U beat rangers twice.

can't find anything else since 98/9

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: exile
Date: 18-05-2006, 21:56
Since 1962, the overall record in English-Scottish club
matches in European competitions is

England won 25 Scotland 13 drawn 16, goals England 49 Scotland 25.

However since 1982

Scotland won 6 England 5 drawn 6, goals Scotland 21 England 18.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 19-05-2006, 09:44
What about the time when Rangers 'HUMPED' Leeds 2-1 at home and away? And here's another couple of observations, I'm really surprised that I can't find any reference to England winning the 1966 World Cup on this forum or is it just The English T.V. commentators that rabbit on about that and the guys on the forum are sensible?
Why are English teams running scared about letting Scottish teams into the premiership? Do you think they would survive? I also find it surprising that in the past 50 years there has only been two poofs in English football, Justin Fashanu and Bobby Moore. Finally, why is Graeme Souness such a fanny?

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 19-05-2006, 09:51
I read in the SUN or was it the SPORT that some countries want to change their name before the world cup starts?????????
It said something about metatarsal united.whoops.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 19-05-2006, 09:54
Yes I read that as well, England apparently want to change their team name to ' Of course we'll win it were England after all and we're much better than all the other teams'. and Scotland Have already changed their name to 'Win it if you like Enland and we'll hump you straight afterwards like we did in 1967'.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 19-05-2006, 11:31
OK- so if you go back a bit, it does seem true; English clubs do relatively badly against Scottish clubs.

If Hearts, Liverpool and Arsenal all make it through the QRs, I think the chance of having at least one CL group with both a Scottish and an English team is high (something like 49/64, allowing for the possibility of Hearts facing one of the English teams in QR3 - if you count that QR3 in the possibilities, I suppose it goes up relaly high 57/64 (maybe someone can check my stats here - with Celtic is only because they can't draw Chelsea.)

People don't mention England 1966 here because the forum is about club football, and relatively few contributors are English anyway!

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 19-05-2006, 11:46
Im a celtic fan but I know the team is still young so we will do well if we come third in the group, nomatter who we get.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 19-05-2006, 11:51
Well- what about possibilities for strengthening all three Scottish squads in the summer?

1) Rangers - Le Guen will have some ideas, surely; and this was already an excellent performance by the club in Europe this year.

2) Hearts - we know Romanov has the dosh; will he dip in his pocket to boost Hearts' CL chances? - are any targets rumoured?

3) Celtic - do you know who might arrive? Or are you saying that Strachan is having to /deciding to stick with developing the good young players?

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: neill
Date: 19-05-2006, 11:59
Hearts have been linked with Cameroon players Albert Meyong of Belenenses and Rodolph Douara from Sporting Lisbon. Out of favour Chelsea striker Eidur Gudjohnsson has also been linked but would surely be out of Hearts price range. Although Romanov has stated that he will make two or three huge signings this summer, anything can happen at Hearts - just look at last season!

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 19-05-2006, 11:59
Edited by: davie
at: 19-05-2006, 14:15
Hearts have had an exceptional season by their standards and might have won the league if Romanov had not fired George Burley, so they have been strong contenders however, Romanov is a loose cannon who thinks he can pick the team and Hearts will probably go through four managers next season. Celtic benefited for the turmoil at Hearts and the poor displays by Rangers during the first half of the season. It was Rangers worst string of results in their entire history, that's why McLeish is gone. McLeish was more of a 'lucky' manager during his tenure than a skilled manager. Next season Rangers will be an unknown quantity because Paul Le Guen has now taken over. Paul Le Guen will however be expected to produce the goods sooner rather than later for three reasons, 1. His reputation at Lyon, 2. The Rangers support will not tolerate failure and 3. David Murray will be looking for Le Guen to hit the ground running and for Rangers to do well in the UEFA Cup as well as domestically. Celtic are making mistakes if they hold on to the likes of Lennon, Thompson, Hartson, Keane etc, they are all too old and Le Guen is already on record as saying he wants to bring the average age of the Rangers team down to a level where all the players have natural youthful speed along with a level of ability that he will determine when he selects them.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: panda
Date: 19-05-2006, 12:16
1) Hearts: well, yes, Romanov is a complete madman, but one would like to think he realises it's worth trying to invest in Hearts CL participation. It MUST be good for Scottish football if there can be at least one more regularly strong team.

2) Rangers Good Euro season us past + foreign manager with successful Euro record = hope?

3) Celtic - yeah, I certainly have the impression that Celtic's way of dealing with not having quite as much money as it should has been for some time to combine young home-grown talent + ageing imported stars. nevertheless, I'm pretty frustrated they've never made it out of GS yet.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 19-05-2006, 13:37
Who does murry think he is? he clapped the cat and drowned the kittens when it came to big Eck.
Murry is an absolute bloody disgrace,
Tell him to rap it and let someone who cares about rangers take over the helm.
Le guen will walk away next year after spending whatever money he gets, Then who?????????? Stuart Mccall or Alex Rae?
Do me a bloody favour.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 19-05-2006, 13:40
Edited by: davie
at: 19-05-2006, 14:20
Rice, ya dirty rat ye. Clapped the cat and drowned the kittens? Are you a effing vet or something? Dermot Desmond doesn't even have a cat to clap but then again he's a money stealing 'pussy' along with that old punter Brian Quinn who's about 428 years old. And by the way, I saw a Union Jack sticking 'oot yer windae.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: davie
Date: 19-05-2006, 14:02
In reply to Panda, Celtic 'HAVE' been making money, statistics prove they are in the top 16 earning clubs in the world but the board syphon off all the profits. All the previous boards did the same. At one time you could go to Celtic Park and there would be no room to move yet in the newspapers the 'official' gate number for games would be listed as 35,000/40,000 or there-a-abouts, when in reality fans knew there was more like 70,000/80,000 in the ground. This meant the board could syphon off all the extra gate money AND NOT EVEN pay tax on it. This gate money con was used to say there was not enough money to give to managers to buy players. Celtic did not improve their team even after getting to the UEFA cup final. Even now they still short change the fans when it comes to buying players and extending exixting players contracts. In summary the controllers of Celtic are a bunch of tight fisted bastards and the only difference over the years is that it's been differing tight fisted bastards. Statistics show that Celtic have earned over 250 million pounds since the Seville final, where is it? where has it gone? Not on ground improvements because they've made none,(Fergus McCann did all the improvements), not on players because they've spent only around 1% of that sum on players so if it's not spent on the ground or on players where is it? I'll tell you, it's in the overseas bank accounts of Dermot Desmond, Brian Quinn, and the rest of the board. Fergus McCann was a breath of fresh air at Celtic Park. Celtic were 50 minutes away from bankruptcy when he took over, he laid out his plans, invested his cash, stuck to his promises and moved on when he said he would, sure he took 40 million when he went but he built the value of the club from from ZERO, because that's what it was worth 50 minutes from being bankrupt to being worth the 40 million he got.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: FergusMcCann
Date: 19-05-2006, 14:38
Well said Davie, it's not usual for me to get involved in fans forums but what I did for Celtic was accurately portrayed in your post. In hindsight I wish I had not done it with Celtic and invested the money in Rangers Football Club. David Murray is a football visionary who has put his money where his mouth is and knows the direction in which he wishes to proceed, somewhat like myself. Yes I did take 40 million pound when I sold the club, but I should point out it was 'NOT ALL' profit. Believe me when I say that the current owners have taken far more out of Celtic Football Club than I ever did. The difference between the current board and I is that I knew what the club meant to Scotland as a whole and the fans in particular and I could see a short term relatively good opportunity to make a profit I would be happy with and in return give the club and the fans something back in the form of a new up to date ground that would be the envy of many a club. The current board are NOT interested in the fans, they are NOT interested in the best interests of the club, they ARE interested in just how much money they can take from the club up to the point just short of a fans revolt, if they continue to survive in just that position, (because they are in it now), they will continue to short change the ever faithful Celtic support.

Re: question about seeding in the uefa cup...
Author: markrice
Date: 31-05-2006, 13:28
Are you just a MADMAN?