Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: Mikaelson
Date: 07-08-2008, 20:59

May I have a question what kind of rule is this?

Sparta Prague was drawn to play first leg against Panathinaikos in Athens. But PAO sent complaint to UEFA, that according to rules - no 2 teams from same town can play home matches in same day and round of CHL (that mean Sparta and Slavia are both not allowed to play 2nd leg of QR3 in Prague on 26.8., and Sparta-PAO is reschedulled, to play first leg at home)

Then take a look at draw - PAO and Piraeus will now play both 2nd leg in Athens! And as far as I know Piraeus is playing in Athens... Does it mean, that nation with higher coefficient has an advantage to choose? Or were our club abused? It makes me quite angry...

Re: QUESTION
Author: Kaiser Date: 07-08-2008, 22:14 Edited by: Kaiser at: 07-08-2008, 22:15	deleted

Re: QUESTION
Author: Polak Date: 08-08-2008, 10:35	That would surprise me if that was done, I think they should just move on match to a few days earlier or later.

Re: QUESTION
Author: Mikaelson Date: 08-08-2008, 11:58	Trust me I just hoped, that its kind of some rule which uses uefa allocations... It seems to me really strange... Just take a look at draw and official terms of matches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB2OOV7TFS4 http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/index.html

Author: seso
Date: 08-08-2008, 13:35

I think that your club was brutally abused... I found the following in Panathinakos' site:

Ã?Ðñïêñéìáôéêüò ãýñïò Champions League 01-08-2008
Åöüóïí ï Ðáíáèçíáúêüò ðñïêñéèåß óôïí Ã?ðñïêñéìáôéêü ãýñï ôïõ Champions League, ç çìåñïìçíßá äéåîáãùãÞò ôïõ åíôüò Ýäñáò áãþíá ôïõ èá åßíáé:
12 Áõãïýóôïõ, åÜí áíôßðáëüò ôïõ åßíáé ç ÓÝñéö Ôßñáóðïë Þ 26 Áõãïýóôïõ, åÜí áíôßðáëüò ôïõ åßíáé ç ÓðÜñôá ÐñÜãáò

It is an anouncement from the 1st of August saying that if Pana will play Sheriff the home match will be on the 12th of August, whereas if it is Sparta Prague it will be on the 26th of August. So it seems that it was already decided. There was no "complaining" afterwards.
Also the stadium of Pana is about 20 km away from Olympiakos' stadium. Also Pana will play on the 26th and Olymp on the 27th.

Re: QUESTION
Author: Mikaelson Date: 08-08-2008, 13:44	Our management is really poor and weak... They come from bussiness sphere and I am sure that They know about football something like rocking horse knows about nature ride But anyway - thanks for your replies!

Re: QUESTION
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 08-08-2008, 16:43	It is a normal rule. Before the competion starts clubs/cities can anounce that 2 clubs cannot play at home on the same day/week. This was apparently so for the 2 clubs from Praha. The city of Athens doesn't have a problem with Panathinaikos and Olympiakos playing in the same week apparently, so that is why they now play both at home in the same week.

Author: isidromv
Date: 08-08-2008, 20:09
Edited by: isidromv
at: 08-08-2008, 20:16

Although I don?t know the details, my impression is that there is not such a rule, at least not a UEFA rule. But as Forza-AZ says, local authorities may request UEFA to avoid clashes for security reasons. Maybe Praha did request it but Athens did not.

EDIT after looking at the UEFA regulations, it shall be requested when entering the clubs to the competitions bu the national association and by the clubs:

11.04 If more than one club from the same city, or within a radius of 50 km (31 miles) of each other, are taking part in the UEFA Champions League competition and/or play in the same stadium, and if the national association and the clubs concerned explicitly declare when entering the clubs that their matches cannot be played on the same day, the UEFA administration may alter or confirm dates and kick-off times according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee.

11.05 If more than one club from the same city, or within a radius of 50 km (31 miles) of each other, are taking part in any of the UEFA club competitions and/or play in the same stadium, and if the national association and the clubs concerned explicitly declare when entering the clubs that their matches cannot be played on the same day, priority is given to UEFA Champions League matches and UEFA Cup matches are reversed.

Author: Mikaelson
Date: 09-08-2008, 11:47
Edited by: Mikaelson
at: 09-08-2008, 11:49

No thats not the problem. Prague surely doesnt see in this any trouble. It was PAO who had problem with this rule from the beggining and tried hard to play first leg away. And if They say that in case of this rule the first match will be transfered , why the hell is not transfered match between Famagusta and Pireaus? Why this probably happened?
a) POOR MANAGEMENT OF SPARTA
b) BAD UEFA DECISION
c) SOMETHING BEHIND which SPARTA MANAGEMENT DOESNT WANT TO SHOW

Re: QUESTION
Author: bert.kassies Date: 09-08-2008, 12:05	Mikaelson, do you have any proof for your statement? It's unlikely that UEFA took this decision solely upon request of Panathinaikos.

Author: Mikaelson
Date: 09-08-2008, 13:16
Edited by: Mikaelson
at: 09-08-2008, 13:19

If i had proof, i wouldnt write here

I hoped, that the answer on this problem will be found in coefficients

I will guide you through short history:

1) Interview with prsident of Sparta after draw (http://fotbal.sport.cz/clanek/133909-chovanec-i-bez-stamilionovych-prijmu-z-li
gy-mistru-by-se-sparta-obesla.html)
"Dokonce pøišli i s tím, abychom si prohodili sled zápasù a první utkání se hrálo v Praze. Jen snaha vytvoøit si lepší pozici na cestì do Champions League. Zbožné pøání, které jsem samozøejmì s díky odmítl."

{b>In translation - "They (PAO) came with idea, that we could switch order of matches and the first leg would be played in Prague. We take it as attempt to make their position better to get to CHL. But Its only their gods wish, which we have thankfully rejected."{/b>

2) Notice for fans about switching matches (http://www.sparta.cz/cs/novinky/zpravodajstvi/fotbalove/9400.shtml)
"Sparané mìli pùvodnì zaèínat na høišti soupeøe, ale reglement UEFA mluví proti nim. Podle pravidel Evropské fotbalové federace totiž nesmí v jednom kole (myšleno i bìhem dvou hracích dnù) nastoupit na domácím høišti týmy, jejichž stadiony jsou od sebe vzdáleny ménì než 50 kilometrù. A jelikož Slavia zaèíná boj o nejprestižnìjší klubovou soutìž na høišti italské Florentiny, hráli by oba èeští zástupci odvety ve stejném termínu v Praze. Pøednost jako domácí mistr má v tento moment Slavia a Sparta tak s øeckým gigantem pomìøí síly nejdøíve v AXA Arenì."

{b>In translation - "Sparta should start 3rd qualifing round on the opponents ground, but reglement of UEFA stands against them. According to rules of UEFA - in 1 round of CHL (never mind if its in 1 day or 2 days) teams are not allowed to play home matches in situation when They have stadiums less than 50 km away from each other. Slavia starts their campaign on a ground of Fiorentina, so both of Czechs representatives in UEFA CHL would play reprisal in same term in Prague. Advanatage is in hands of Slavia as title holder. Thats the reason why Sparta wil play first leg at home, at AXA Arena."{/b>

3) Ok - This situation I took as a fact, but than I was quite shocked, why are Piraues and PAO allowed to play 2nd leg both in Athens? I thought, that coefficient problem could solve this - better ranked country can choose, but as I see its not that case

4) So I thought about it in more ways. I spoke here about weak management of Sparta. But also it can be problem of UEFA - I am not sure if Greeks have some person in UEFA committe, but it can also make some pressure on decision. Or there are reasons behind... Money for Sparta from PAO? Or something else? Anyway - only persons who suffer from this are Sparta fans... And if {i>SESO{/i> says, that PAO were decided before...

Its really weird

Re: QUESTION
Author: bert.kassies Date: 09-08-2008, 14:28	Mikaelson, thanks for the info. One more point: the UEFA regulations stated above by isidromv also tell us to look at CL-QR3 and UC-QR2 matches both. The UC-QR2 match between AEK Athens and Omonia Nicosia is also reversed. I don't know if that is part of the problem, as other teams from Nicosia take also part in UC-QR2.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 09-08-2008, 14:35

I guess this is a "rule" that is open to flexible interpretation in different countries.

In the first instance it makes sense that they had to switch one of the games at the Czech end & that Slavia get the advantage of playing at home second as Champions.

The question mark is then at the Greek end. The solution there seems to have been partially arrived at by shifting the second leg by 24 hours.

But why it's "OK" for the two games to take place within that time in Athens & not Prague I don't know.

It might simply be that historically Panathinaikos & Olympiakos aren't "paired" in these situations. Looking back to the 2003-04 CL -when there were three Greek teams in the group stages - these two teams played matches within 24 hours of each other. One of them (I presume Panathinaikos) was paired with AEK. It might be pedantic
but I suppose that - in that situation - Athens & Piraeus were considered as separate cities. Of course with 3 teams to take into account UEFA had no choice but to allow two of them to play at home.

Actually just looking at the UEFA Cup fixtures & AEK are also due to play at home on the 28th so they "get away with" three days in a row.

Author: Mikaelson
Date: 10-08-2008, 13:31

It would be great, if some of UEFA, Sparta or PAO representatives made statement on this situation... For normal supporter its too much dark to see through, and I think that any team could misuse this rule in future... And thats bad for football.

PS: http://maps.google.cz/maps?f=q&hl=cs&q=%CE%A0%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%
AC%CF%82,+%C5%98ecko&jsv=122&sll=49.930008,15.369873&sspn=6.748431,14.150391&ie=
UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=0,36.913598,23.392140

I cant see there 50 km

Re: QUESTION
Author: Dragonite Date: 12-08-2008, 13:00	Badgerboy is correct. Athens and Piraeus are considered different towns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_and_Champions_League_history#2004:_Ou tsiders It is written here that “Piraeus is formally another town”. So, Olympiakos and Panathinaikos aren’t considered teams from the same town, while Sparta & Slavia are.

Re: QUESTION
Author: cambiasso Date: 12-08-2008, 18:28	The two cities of Piraeus and Athens have more or less merged throughout the years, and today the Athens Metro runs all the way to Piraeus. They are officially two different cities as stated in the post above (with Piraeus considered to be the port of Athens) but it does indeed look as if Piraeus is a part of Athens.

Author: Mikaelson
Date: 12-08-2008, 18:38
Edited by: Mikaelson
at: 12-08-2008, 18:40

But as {i>Isidromv{/i> said:

{b>11.04 If more than one club from the same city, or within a radius of 50 km (31 miles) of each other, are taking part in the UEFA Champions League competition and/or play in the same stadium, and if the national association and the clubs concerned explicitly declare when entering the clubs that their matches cannot be played on the same day, the UEFA administration may alter or confirm dates and kick-off times according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee.{/b>

So I dont care if they are considred to be different cities...

And as i have seen on the map - its SURELY less then 50 km...

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 12-08-2008, 19:23

Mikaelson,

Did not simply Sparta and Slavia asked UEFA to reverse one fixture in order get more money from TV coverage, or so? Or did they simply said "yes" on a question of UEFA? Or did they explicitly declare when they applied for the competion that their matches cannot be played on the same day?

The rules mentioned above are (probably) not valid, or only partial valid, for the qualifying phase. For the Champions League it is very clear.

The CL regulations have a special article for the qualifying phase:

Qualifying phase
11.06 The venues, dates and kick-off times of all qualifying matches must be confirmed and communicated to the UEFA administration in writing by the national associations of the clubs concerned by the deadline set by the UEFA administration. The UEFA administration may alter or confirm dates and kick-off times according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee. The non-respect of this provision may entail disciplinary measures.

For the UEFA Cup the regulations are not so clear. The UC regulations have the following articles:

Confirmation of venues, dates and kick-off times
11.04 The venues, dates and kick-off times of all matches must be confirmed and communicated to the UEFA administration in writing by the national associations of the clubs concerned by the deadline set by the UEFA Administration. The UEFA administration may alter or confirm dates and kickoff times according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee. The non-respect of this provision may entail disciplinary measures.

Match dates and fixture reversals
11.05 The UEFA administration decides on match dates and fixture reversals on a case-by-case basis, according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee. For the first round of the competition, associations with three or more clubs in the UEFA Cup may arrange the home and away matches of their clubs on Tuesdays, provided such matches kick off before 18.00 hours (CET). The approval of the visiting club and its national association is necessary in such cases. The UEFA administration reserves the right to impose a match date in the event of clashes between domestic competition matches and matches in this competition.

Automatic reversals
11.06 If more than one club from the same city, or within a radius of 50 km (31 miles) of each other, are taking part in any of the UEFA club competitions and/or play in the same stadium, and if the national association and the clubs concerned explicitly declare when entering the clubs that their matches cannot be played on the same day, priority is given to UEFA Champions League matches and UEFA Cup matches are reversed in accordance with the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-08-2008, 20:59

Mikaelson

Even if you take the precise "rules" that you lay out as applying to the qualifying matches:

11.04 If more than one club from the same city, or within a radius of 50 km (31 miles) of each other, are taking part in the UEFA Champions League competition and/or play in the same stadium, and if the national association and the clubs concerned explicitly declare when entering the clubs that their matches cannot be played on the same day, the UEFA administration may alter or confirm dates and kick-off times according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee.

- the bit I've put in bold seems quite important. It doesn't say that matches must not be played on the same day if clubs are within 50km of each other. It leaves it up to the national association at the time they enter the clubs. So if the Czech FA said "matches for these two clubs can't be played on the same day" and the Greek FA said "we don't care" that answers the question.

Of course the Czech FA might have made a "mistake" between the qualifying phase & the groups. I think that for the group stage clubs from the same country are automatically separated in the draw regardless of their location - so if a country has just two clubs they are split regardless of whether they are 50km or 500km apart. Maybe the Greeks are more "street wise" with this & - knowing their clubs will get split if they both get to the groups anyway - don't care about the qualifiers.

Re: QUESTION
Author: executor Date: 12-08-2008, 21:11	Interesting situation in UCGS 05/06: MD4: November, 30th: Steaua - Halmstad 3-0 December 1st: Rapid - PAOK 1-0, Dinamo - CSKA Moscow 1-0 So, 3 games of 3 big teams with lots of fans, in the same city, within 24 hours. There were no problems.

Re: QUESTION
Author: seso Date: 13-08-2008, 20:44	Bert, I read this about the reversal of the Omonoia-AEK match: Apparently Omonoia and APOEL Nicosia play at the same stadium, and APOEL has a match on the same day (against Red Star Belgrade).

Re: QUESTION
Author: Mikaelson Date: 14-08-2008, 12:45	Anyway - now it doesnt matter... We have lost at home, so it looks like that reversal of matches wouldnt help us I can confirm, that our national association DIDNT say, that its unacceptable to play both matches in Prague...