Next UEFA reforms: 2021 onwards

including formats, draws, seedings, etc.
nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Overgame wrote:
nemesys wrote: Can the rules of professional boxing (in Europe), directly or indirectly, force the guy to stay with that same manager any longer?
No, they can't: as soon as the guy complains about his rights being denied, such rules have to change for everybody.
Same with Uefa and football: you can't turn back time to a pre-Bosman age.
This is nonsense. In Belgium, a player can break his contract if he (or someone else) pays a fine (equals to his salary until the end of the contract). Yes, he can. The national laws have the upper hand over UEFA and if UEFA creates a salary cap, any country could just says "fuck off".
Which is exactly what I was was stating. Why nonsense?
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Duketown wrote:Since employee laws sets some boundaries, for both workers and bosses, there are some mutial obligations and benefits. This is a fact UEFA has to deal with.
This is all I was trying to say. You cannot go back pre-Bosman again.
Obviously my English is worst than I thought, since it seems that I truly have hard time expressing my ideas.
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Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

So are we on the same line now?
1) salary cap is not within UEFA's reach; it's national law.
2) transfer windows are sane and won't be abolished by UEFA. UEFA loves transfers since this attracts investors.
Duketown wrote:I also like the limit on outbound loans. Simply to reduce excessive player trade.
Duketown wrote:Limit on outbound loans is much easier compared to limiting transfers or the number of squad members. The market will regulate itself since most players actually like to play.

So which young player wants to become 1 out of 30 legionnaires at Chelsea or ManCity if only 6 can be loaned to other clubs? Believe me, that guy will build his career more natural and will only move to Chelsea if he think he can be a relevant squad member. So Stoke City, instead of renting such player, can now own him and maybe even sell him for a good price.
So limiting outbound rentals seems most sensible solution to limit excessive player trade.
Last edited by Duketown on Wed Jan 18, 2017 20:39, edited 6 times in total.
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Duketown wrote:Nemesis.. let's get some facts straight: Sport law, Employee law and contract law. You're mixing it all up.
I was not mixing for teh sake of it. I was mixing to show that some things are "vessatorie" (don't know the term in English), and some other are not. The right to work if someone wants to hire you is something you are free no matter what sport laws say. The right to change work place the same. And so on. Other things are different. However, never mind.

I'm not angry at anyone, I'm just very disappointed by the lack of a chance of a relaxed talk within this football forum recently.
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

Overgame wrote: The national laws have the upper hand over UEFA and if UEFA creates a salary cap, any country could just says "fuck off".
Well, technicaly any country can say fuck off to UEFA in any moment for any reason, so this argument proves nothing.
UEFA - We care about money. Pravda za Kolubaru!
Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

krdel wrote:
Overgame wrote: The national laws have the upper hand over UEFA and if UEFA creates a salary cap, any country could just says "fuck off".
Well, technicaly any country can say fuck off to UEFA in any moment for any reason, so this argument proves nothing.
You proof nothing besides that you can't read. What exactly don't you understand? I can spell this out for you even further. Try to give an argument because saying (3x times) no doesn't add to the discussion...
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
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Overgame
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Post by Overgame »

krdel wrote:
Overgame wrote: The national laws have the upper hand over UEFA and if UEFA creates a salary cap, any country could just says "fuck off".
Well, technicaly any country can say fuck off to UEFA in any moment for any reason, so this argument proves nothing.
No. Well, if they leave UEFA or are suspended, of course. But FFP, transfert wondows, etc were challenged several times, and UEFA always won.

A salary cap is illegal under the european laws and most national laws. UEFA is an asdiocation of FA's, the clubs are companies affiliated with these FA's. While in the US, NBA, NFL, etc are asdociations of franchises. While every decision of the NBA is made by the franchises, that's not the case for UEFA and a team challenging this kind of decision on any court would win, easily.
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

Yes I know that, But still, transfer window is in the same way illegal in employment law, but somehow they manage to use it. I'm sure that with some kind of collective act they could implement salary cap, legally of course, like in China. Exycept if you're saying that salary cap in China is illegal (eu laws can be changed if necesary of course)?

I'm thinking something like, salary cap for superleague and if you exceed it, you get -30 points or sth. That would be internal rule of the competition and noone could really challenge this decision. Also if they collectively make such a decision, noone really has to challenge it, because it is in interest of everyone in the long term. Each club or FA can, of course, leave UEFA, like now.

Duketown, I don't know what you want, I wasn't even quoting you and I'm not having a debate on this level,
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Overgame
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Post by Overgame »

krdel wrote:Yes I know that, But still, transfer window is in the same way illegal in employment law, but somehow they manage to use it. I'm sure that with some kind of collective act they could implement salary cap, legally of course, like in China. Exycept if you're saying that salary cap in China is illegal (eu laws can be changed if necesary of course)?

I'm thinking something like, salary cap for superleague and if you exceed it, you get -30 points or sth. That would be internal rule of the competition and noone could really challenge this decision. Also if they collectively make such a decision, noone really has to challenge it, because it is in interest of everyone in the long term. Each club or FA can, of course, leave UEFA, like now.

Duketown, I don't know what you want, I wasn't even quoting you and I'm not having a debate on this level,
The transfert window doesn't prevent the signing any new contract, just the inscription of new players. Like a school has only periods to registrer new students.

And this isn't about leaving UEFA. Seriously, stop using the stupid argument "if you are not happy, leave". No, the World doesn't work like that, the clubs have rights.
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

The clubs have rights and federations have rules...

You started this "leaving argument"
any country could just says "fuck off".
and you also used it before.

btw, schoolboy is not a worker, but school can "sign" new teacher any time.
UEFA - We care about money. Pravda za Kolubaru!
Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

No, UEFA can not force a salary cap besides current one within FFP. This would be illegal and neither labour laws nor specific sport laws can force such restrictions due to conflicting complications regarding free market principles. In US this only happens since the club owners also own the league. Owners simply comply to their own rules, even if they overrule laws since complications are volantary accepted. Totally uncomparable to UEFA situation.

A transfer is contract law between clubs and employment law between club and player. I can offer a boss an amount of money too for his worker and if he accepts, that worker can transfer. So trading humans remains questionable but transfers are perfectly sane and legal, for both club and player. Again, free market principles.

But again, this is national laws and UEFA will keep their regulation in line with legal frameworks. UEFA adapt to laws but don't have the authority to make or break laws. UEFA's regulation are being challenged since 50 years in 53 members states with different political systems, spread over 3 continents. Believe me, UEFA's rules are pretty solid. Even better, thanks to UEFA, some member states adjusted their laws to become more inline with more modern EU laws related to workers freedom and protection. Even today, UEFA is a big driver to reform nationals FA's, i.e. in Greece and Eastern Europe. A few years ago Turkish FA couldn't even provide how much fans attended matches (because it was an easy way to laundry money).

However, UEFA does limits clubs-to-play-for to twice a year, which makes sense, compared to a worker being able to leave 4 times a year (3 months termination period). Players and clubs can even resign from their contracts as long as the other is fairly compensated.
Currently, most controversial is that contracts are limited to 5 years. I think that is because an athletes carreer is shorter than a workers carreer. My guess is that this is the reason we don't we see permanent contracts in football... This assumption that players have short carreers seems discriminal to me. Same goes for sexism.

More info on fixed-term contracts in sports: http://www.asser.nl/SportsLaw/Blog/post ... otr-drabik
Last edited by Duketown on Wed May 03, 2017 16:12, edited 1 time in total.
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

Funny enough, yesterday there was a Belgium Court ruling against article 17.2 in FIFA transferpolicy, meaning players might walk out of their contract freely.

Fifa transferpolicy: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affeder ... _33410.pdf
News item: http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2017 ... p-working/
the EU free movement rights are not absolute; if necessary they can, and will, be restricted in the name of the general interest
Remember: FIFA/UEFA play has always been about the fairness of the game, which is in the eye of the beholder.
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
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CrabCZ
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Post by CrabCZ »

Clubs will use buy-back clauses instead of loans.
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Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

@crabCZ.

No problem: only 6 buy-backs-clauses in TMS as well. ;-)
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Duketown
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Post by Duketown »

Infantino's follow-up, new UEFA president Čeferin, reflected his first 5 months in office:
Čeferin wrote:I got support from the big associations like DFB (Germany), France and Italy and the small ones, but also from regions like Scandinavia and at a certain point this wave of support was too strong to stop.

In terms of his achievements so far, Ceferin said: “I have brought in term limits and we have created an independent body to deal with financial, legal and disciplinary misconduct. We also have a new security unit. It’s strange, but we didn’t have a women’s football unit. Now we’re introducing one.”

Under his presidency UEFA also have a new and more transparent bid process. When Michel Platini was in charge, cities were awarded club finals behind closed doors. Not any more.
UEFA also warned FIFA, again
Čeferin wrote: On the subject of World Cup expansion, Ceferin re-iterated that Europe would accept no fewer than 16 teams, up from the current 13. UEFA was the only confederation that didn’t want expansion but we had no chance. So we’ve decided to fight for as many European slots as possible.

We don’t want to be arrogant, but in terms of quality, revenues, etc., Europe is number one. We’re not just a continental confederation. You can‘t simply outvote us every time. If that happens, there could be serious problems between FIFA and UEFA. But FIFA knows it and that’s why it won’t happen.
FIFA’s decision to expand the World Cup to 48 teams, also has problems with European Club Association, headed by Karl-Heinz Rummenigge.
Rummenigge wrote:Under FIFA rules, countries are obliged to release their players and whilst not wishing to rock that boat, Rummenigge added: “If the big clubs were to refuse to allow their players to take part, that would not be in the interest of the fans.

“At the end of the day, there are the top clubs such as Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, the big Spanish and English clubs, Paris St Germain, Juventus.”

“That is a shift of power that neither UEFA or FIFA can stop and things have changed dramatically in the last few years.”
I don't believe this last statement. UEFA also need other big clubs beside those 13 named clubs to have a pan-european platform with worldwide appeal, for years to come. In the end, strong domestic clubs attracts a global TV audiences. In reality, the big leagues shouldn't have the strongest voice; big clubs should.

For sure, UEFA is way ahead of FIFA. However, FIFA's TPO-rules hold in EU, many problems still need to be solved. United States involvements, doesn't make things easier for FIFA. I expect this 48 World Cup format to be not very durable.
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
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