Downfall of Portuguese football League

[AlanK]

Desperate accusations by the channel of a club that itself is accused of corruption (look for the emails case, they all leaked recently). You really hang on to anything, no matter its veracity, to come back to this thread...

Yes, they are all corrupt. It's a national attitude, together with accumulating debts.

Funny because I'm Portuguese and I'm 100% debt-free and never partook in any corruption, I wasn't informed of that national attitude, may need to give my passport back.

You're getting quite desperate in this thread, any random unverified screenshot works for you. Meanwhile, and almost karma-like, since you've joined this forum the country that declined the most was the Netherlands. Where's the thread for that?

Wondered when somebody would point out the "deflection" described in the last sentence . . .

[bjkman1903]

Meanwhile, and almost karma-like, since you've joined this forum the country that declined the most was the Netherlands. Where's the thread for that?

I was curious about this and compared data from 5 years ago (2012) and now (2017). Here are the results :

Spain +20.588 (rank 2 -> 1)
Italy +13.351 (rank 4 = 4)
Czech Republic +12.825 (rank 19 -> rank 11)
Belgium +10.000 (rank 12-> 9)
Switzerland +5.275 (rank 14-> 12)
Turkey +5.150 (rank 11-> 10)
Germany +4.312 (rank 3-> 2)
Russia +2.700 (rank 7-> 6)
France +2.487 (rank 6-> 5)
-----------------------------------
Austria -0.975 (rank 15 = 15)
Ukraine -2.500 (rank 9 -> 8 )
Portugal -6.014 (rank 5-> 7)
England -8.448 (rank 1-> 3)
Greece -9.200 (rank 10-> 14)
Netherlands -14.452 (rank 8-> 13)

... and it looks like you are right! Between all top 15 countries, the Netherlands are bottom-placed with a difference of -14.452 coefficient points compared to 2012 (despite an EL final last season) and they also dropped by 5 places.
Interesting to see that Greece are not far from them. And England were #1 back then ahead of Spain.
Italy are still #4 despite a huge improvement.

[Sao]

Oh this thread is about Dutch decline now. In that case, Holland are a bit of a foreign legion as well. Their FA has been looking to poach talents that were born abroad because development of the ones born in Holland failed miserably. Van Dijk is Holland's most valuable player and he has been woeful this year.

Bruno Martins Indi and a few others, like Kongolo, weren't born in Holland but fair enough that they represent Holland as they were naturalized at quite a young age (Kongolo probably had kicked a ball before moving to Holland but AFAIK he didn't uproot for football reasons).

This short article already mentions Bakkali (Belgium) and Douglas (Brazil), then you have Kalou (Côte d'Ivoire), J. de Guzman (Canada), ... who knows how many players the Dutch FA has been looking at. Why even accuse Portugal? Duketown could as well question the (backroom) dealings of his own FA.

[Club-Mate]

Dutch youth dev. system seems ok. They are 4th in U17 and 6th in U19 in Uefa 4 yrs rankings (combined if you add points of both 4th, Portugal 3th) and who knows now what will come out in a couple of years? The Ajax system is still working well.

country U17 U19 summary
1 England 27,667 21,889 49,556
2 Germany 25,333 22,778 48,111
3 Portugal 21,389 24,722 46,111
4 Netherland 23,111 17,667 40,778
5 Spain 24,056 16,500 40,556
6 France 20,611 18,556 39,167
7 Austria 14,167 19,000 33,167
8 Russia 14,944 14,611 29,555
9 Italy.. 15,000 14,222 29,222
10 Serbia 13,333 14,667 28,000
11 Czech 11,778 14,833 26,611
12 Belgium 14,833 11,167 26,000
13 Scotland 17,000 8,833 25,833
14 Ukraine 10,722 14,833 25,555
15 Turkey 13,556 11,000 24,556

[Duketown]

Oh this thread is about Dutch decline now. In that case, Holland are a bit of a foreign legion as well. Their FA has been looking to poach talents that were born abroad because development of the ones born in Holland failed miserably. Van Dijk is Holland's most valuable player and he has been woeful this year.

Bruno Martins Indi and a few others, like Kongolo, weren't born in Holland but fair enough that they represent Holland as they were naturalized at quite a young age (Kongolo probably had kicked a ball before moving to Holland but AFAIK he didn't uproot for football reasons).

This short article already mentions Bakkali (Belgium) and Douglas (Brazil), then you have Kalou (Côte d'Ivoire), J. de Guzman (Canada), ... who knows how many players the Dutch FA has been looking at. Why even accuse Portugal? Duketown could as well question the (backroom) dealings of his own FA.

Hahahaha....

Kongolo and BMI are as Dutch as you get. BMI moved to the Netherlands before he opened his eyes and hardly speaks Portuguese.
Kongolo also grew up in The Netherlands after his parents settled here after being on the run. Both run through Dutch youth system and through all age restricted Dutch NT's.

Those others hardly had playtime in Oranje because of various reasons like being football nomads and/or players who fell in love with The Netherlands. Douglas could naturalize due to being 5 years in The Netherlands and he also married his Dutch wife, Bakalli was a rumour which only lasted 2 weeks, De Guzman grew up in The Netherlands and Kalou himself wanted to become Dutch but he played close to 100 matches for Ivory Coast.

Anyways, totally incomparable to Portuguese player import. Or Belgium for that matter. Belgium is another country greatly benefiting their former colonial roots.

[Duketown]

Dutch youth dev. system seems ok. They are 4th in U17 and 6th in U19 in Uefa 4 yrs rankings (combined if you add points of both 4th, Portugal 3th) and who knows now what will come out in a couple of years? The Ajax system is still working well.

country U17 U19 summary
1 England 27,667 21,889 49,556
2 Germany 25,333 22,778 48,111
3 Portugal 21,389 24,722 46,111
4 Netherland 23,111 17,667 40,778
5 Spain 24,056 16,500 40,556
6 France 20,611 18,556 39,167
7 Austria 14,167 19,000 33,167
8 Russia 14,944 14,611 29,555
9 Italy.. 15,000 14,222 29,222
10 Serbia 13,333 14,667 28,000
11 Czech 11,778 14,833 26,611
12 Belgium 14,833 11,167 26,000
13 Scotland 17,000 8,833 25,833
14 Ukraine 10,722 14,833 25,555
15 Turkey 13,556 11,000 24,556

You can also add Youth League, with yearly 2 clubs entering spring knock outs. If not for those crazy UEFA rules, The Netherlands would have 4 teams in knock out.

[Thunder_PT]

BMI moved to the Netherlands before he opened his eyes and hardly speaks Portuguese.

He does speak Portuguese and did even before playing for FC Porto. A Portuguese ref who didn't know him and did a Feyenoord game was surprised when he spoke to him in perfect Portuguese.

Anyways, totally incomparable to Portuguese player import.

It's ok with Indi but not with Danilo Pereira and co? Lots of people immigrate from Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, Guinea Bissau or São Tomé and Príncipe to Portugal, it's only normal that their kids then choose to play for Portugal.

[Duketown]

BMI moved to the Netherlands before he opened his eyes and hardly speaks Portuguese.

He does speak Portuguese and did even before playing for FC Porto. A Portuguese ref who didn't know him and did a Feyenoord game was surprised when he spoke to him in perfect Portuguese.

he hardly spoke Portuguese before his transfer, only a few words like me. Learned a few words from his mam but English was his second language. Your Portuguese patriotism is affecting your judgement once again.

Anyways, totally incomparable to Portuguese player import.

It's ok with Indi but not with Danilo Pereira and co? Lots of people immigrate from Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, Guinea Bissau or São Tomé and Príncipe to Portugal, it's only normal that their kids then choose to play for Portugal.

All those players, born in former colonies, come to enjoy Portuguese easy naturalization rules. While that ofc is normal, Portugal benefits greatly from this global trend. Incomparable to just a list of random football nomads, not even being related to former Dutch colonies. SAO still is dreaming, naming Bakalli and Kalou makes no sense since those players even didn't play for Dutch NT nor they don't feel Dutch.

So the few names SAO makes up, have a different background story than the 35% CIES calculates for Portugal. More like those other examples, born from mixed marriages.

[Club-Mate]

You can also add Youth League, with yearly 2 clubs entering spring knock outs. If not for those crazy UEFA rules, The Netherlands would have 4 teams in knock out.

I fear for 2018 only more one dutch team is allowed to take part because no more CL team.
They have to get a new access list for youth teams soon, there are enough datas already.
Austria needs urgently a second team as well.

[Thunder_PT]

BMI moved to the Netherlands before he opened his eyes and hardly speaks Portuguese.

He does speak Portuguese and did even before playing for FC Porto. A Portuguese ref who didn't know him and did a Feyenoord game was surprised when he spoke to him in perfect Portuguese.

he hardly spoke Portuguese before his transfer, only a few words like me. Learned a few words from his mam but English was his second language. Your Portuguese patriotism is affecting your judgement once again.

My judgment? He has even said his mother doesn't speak Dutch so he always had to speak Portuguese with her. Look it up (of course you won't, a troll won't let something like the truth get in the way of some good trolling).

Anyways, totally incomparable to Portuguese player import.

It's ok with Indi but not with Danilo Pereira and co? Lots of people immigrate from Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, Guinea Bissau or São Tomé and Príncipe to Portugal, it's only normal that their kids then choose to play for Portugal.

All those players, born in former colonies, come to enjoy Portuguese easy naturalization rules. While that ofc is normal, Portugal benefits greatly from this global trend. Incomparable to just a list of random football nomads, not even being related to former Dutch colonies. SAO still is dreaming, naming Bakalli and Kalou makes no sense since those players even didn't play for Dutch NT nor they don't feel Dutch.

So the few names SAO makes up, have a different background story than the 35% CIES calculates for Portugal. More like those other examples, born from mixed marriages.

Blablabla. Bottom line, some players with Portuguese nationality obtained long before they were professional football players choose to play for Portugal, others don't. Deal with it.

[Duketown]

Bottom line, some players with Portuguese nationality obtained long before they were professional football players choose to play for Portugal, others don't. Deal with it.

32% of Portuguese team is born outside Portugal.

I quoted CIES on this and then you make a big fuss to come to the same conclusion

[Thunder_PT]

Bottom line, some players with Portuguese nationality obtained long before they were professional football players choose to play for Portugal, others don't. Deal with it.

32% of Portuguese team is born outside Portugal.

I quoted CIES on this and then you make a big fuss to come to the same conclusion

The fuss I made was about the wrong conclusions you made (like it's all naturalized Brazilians). To that number all I said was "so what?". It could even be bigger, we could have Eric Dier, Kevin Gameiro, Carrasco, Douglas Costa, Marquinhos and many others.

[Duketown]

Bottom line, some players with Portuguese nationality obtained long before they were professional football players choose to play for Portugal, others don't. Deal with it.

32% of Portuguese team is born outside Portugal.

I quoted CIES on this and then you make a big fuss to come to the same conclusion

"so what?".

Because you believe Portuguese story is thanks to some super genes while the story is different. Liga NOS is hugely overperforming for reasons; just like NT.

So I also want to add that Liga NOS also is the league with most foreigners, mostly consisting of imported Brazilians (this time not a CIES research but from UEFA report).

Add collectively tax evasion, bribery and notorious criminals running football (not UEFA report but normal news), it's clear Portuguese football is corrupted to the bone. TPO cases (hardly news but very clear leaks) even progressing really slow..

For years, 3 great football institutes are close to technical bankruptcy, which empowered those criminals running Portuguese football and media.

Portugal is critical part in much of football related problems: huge debts, unaccountable money flow in transfers, player agents draining clubs and players, combined with easy EU passports, for colonial inhabitants and rich foreigners (which is those signing a football contract in Portugal) are easily welcomed anyway.

Now, Portuguese aren't the only problem: some Moskou clubs with huge debts, Valencia still need to be fixed by it's owner, everlasting Milan problems, PSG and Galatasaray are some other problems.

It's time for an UEFA update. UEFA does not have all answers, but since Portuguese clubs don't have rich owners, changes will have most impact for them.
Likewise, FFP has it's impact in Porto and Benfica themselves announced a huge shift in budget.

Just like I said before: either transform to sustainability or become oligarch part-time toy.

[Thunder_PT]

Genes, what are you talking about? When did I ever say that?

And the same old delusion you've been going on about the whole thread, no point starting again. In the meantime, I ask again, where's the thread for the real downfall actually being verified, clubs, national team, players, coaches, everything: the Dutch?

[Duketown]

Genes, what are you talking about? When did I ever say that?

And the same old delusion you've been going on about the whole thread, no point starting again. In the meantime, I ask again, where's the thread for the real downfall actually being verified, clubs, national team, players, coaches, everything: the Dutch?

Your genes are chauvinistic.

I have read all 3 clubs financial reports plus commentary. Now I draw conclusions, then you start shouting, then UEFA confirms my statements. Besides, I named all other sources.

Déjà vu? Remember, meanwhile UEFA is doing the bookkeeping in Porto-Doyen.

While all 3 Portuguese managed to improve ratios by raising equity (selling shares) and reduced player amortisation, they also showed plenty reminants of kamikaze budgetting, meaning squad cost are equal to total revenue.

To really fix this, transfer and debt fueled business need to further transform to sustainable business with ~65% of turnover in wages, budgets with less UEFA prize money (combined is above what is even possible) and reduced player amortisation.

Porto needs at least another €10m transfers to meet UEFA target of €-20m. Besides, they failed on improving wages to turnover ratio, demanded by UEFA.
Benfica showed greatest shift in mentality, reducing debts and announcing a €25m shift in budget.
Benfica and Lisbon are still balancing around FFP minimum thanks to CL Prize money, successful transfers. Portugal even maintained their UEFA ranking due to troubled competitors Belgium, Ukraine and even Turkey and The Netherlands.

Lots of work needs to be done before I back from any of those statements.