Downfall of Portuguese football League

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Thunder_PT
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Post by Thunder_PT »

Another thing for you to think about:

It's difficult for a club to rise to a certain level and gain a reputation, but once you have, maintaining it is easier, even if the Portuguese big clubs have to spend less, they'll still be regarded as big (not compaired to Barcelona, but certainly compaired to Dutch, Scottish or Polish teams that'll supposedly overtake us.

2 examples for you to think about:

Iker Casillas could go just about anywhere and he pretty much hand-picked Porto. Obviously Porto couldn't afford his wage so Iker pressured Real Madrid to pay a big part of his wage so he could play for Porto and still earn the same. And succeeded! It would have been much easier to do like Xavi and go to an Arab Country... Or the MLS... Hell, a Chinese team could even pay more than real did. But he chose Porto first and the money was sorted out later.

Second example, Kostas Mitroglou is playing for Benfica on loan by Fulham. Benfica have an option to buy him and since he's doing well they want to. The money to buy him isn't a problem, it's the wages he earns with Fulham that are way too high. So Mitroglou will gladly lower his wages so he can stay for Benfica.

Once you're big, you don't even need to be rich, players will want to play for you more than for a club they see as smaller.
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Post by Duketown »

Appreciate your answer Thunder_PT!

As for TPO, I feel pretty strong, being backed up by fifpro (the players) and European Court of Appeal in Bruxelles (EU Laws).
http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2016 ... -activity/
https://www.fifpro.org/en/news/fifpro-u ... gal-action

So FIFA-UEFA TPO bans stays for sure and I'm really looking forward to the next UEFA news about FFP and TPO, 1st of May. So yes, I do expect some problems even if those guys own clubs. Those clubs should at least operate FFP and UEFA actively attacking TPO, backed with footballleaks, fifpro, most FA's and many, many others. Have you noticed the amount of Doyen clubs having troubles with UEFA ;-)

New player-registration system should become really ingenious to effectively fight TPO.. But every step is 1. Like I said, TPO is a slow process. Next important TPO step is the Twente case I mentioned in another topic.

I need time to digest all the other stuff & enjoy your holiday. Trois Vallees are great! ;-)
Maybe a good read for the nights: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Dow ... WNLOAD.pdf
Last edited by Duketown on Tue Mar 22, 2016 17:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Aliceag
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Post by Aliceag »

The Downfall was in the mid 90's and since then it has been always up, including NT.

There was a technological shift and knowledge paradigm rift that improved greatly the base conditions since 99.
The Portuguese clubs not only were poor but had no conditions.
Nowadays we have academies and a generation of state of the art coaches and medical staff.
When you have excelent base conditions, money at some point makes no difference anymore.

Because what you need is just a nice stadium, decent equipment and human resources. Having those nothing prevents you from raising generations and generations of talented, motivated soccer players, from which some quaresmas, nanis, ronaldos will emerge.

The advantage of Portugal it is not TPO. It's the climate, the language, the cultural motivation of Portuguese youth for soccer, and the scientific knowledge of the coaches. Therefore, even with lower budgets we are competing with teams with 10 times more money and attendances, agains NT with 10 and 100 times more population and we are still being competitive.

If money and number of people were the variable that matters most then China, India and US would be the soccer superpowers.

My prediction goes agains yours: Portugal rise has been prevented to some extent by game changing referee mistakes constantly. I foresee that with video-refereeing implemented and those mistakes erased, then Portuguese teams and even other small nation teams will win more often in decisive moments against bigger teams, like CL qualifiers and CLGS games, making them going further and winning more prize money and grabbing more coeff points, creating a positive cycle.

Imagine if there was video-referee in Schalke-Sporting, and CSKA-Sporting and Dynamo-Porto games. Those 3 moments alone, and the outcome would have been, Sporting progressed to R16 in 2015 (at least 6 more coeff points and 10 million); Sporting reach CLGS 2015-216 - at least 6 more coeff points and 15 millions; Porto progressed to R16 2016 - at least 6 more coeff points and 10 millions. Portugal would be 5th place for sure both in 2016 and 2017 already.

So, I see no reasons whatsoever to believe in a decline, since we have 4 teams capable to making +12 points per year even with minimum budgets and mostly relying on Portuguese youth-formed players.
Play fair and square!
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

Wow, so many comments!
Is Portugal going to be #13-15 in year 2026 or they will be #13-15 in 20:26?! :twisted:

I’ll try to read everything and reply to the most interesting parts…



First, Duketown compared to Malko.

I’d say Dutetown is Malko on steroids.
Malko never had the idea to predict that one day UEFA ranking will be like the GDP per capita ranking, and so Luxembourg will be #1.

Why not?
Football is only 11 vs. 11, it shouldn’t really matter if one country has 500.000 people and other has 50.000.000 people. 11 vs.11, and 500.000 is a big enough group to find some talented footballers.



Second, “debt”, I can tell you a thing or two about debt.
I had Porto bonds from December12 to May15.
Not much, just €1.000, and in the end they gave me back about €1.132, so I won 13.2% in about 2.5 years.

I also have Benfica bonds, since April13, and the deadline is next month in April16.
Again not much, just €1.000, and they’ll give me back about €1.145, so I will win 14.5% in three years.


This “debt” that you see in Porto and Benfica reports is (at least some of it) from this kind of things.

They ask for people’s money, and they promise to give it back years later. People are interested because they are reliable institutions, two of Europe’s top clubs.


Again, a huge crime that possibly you only know now!


What I don’t like about TPO is that when I compare TPO to this, I’m being robbed.
I only get a pre-established 13-15% return, while their return is unlimited.
I’d also like to have access to buying percentages of players.
In an ideal world, I should only be a few clicks away from investing in any percentage of any players I want to.



Third, stop running away from the past, and please explain why the cloud cuckoo land “rules” that will be so accurate by 2026, were so inaccurate over the last 60 years.



Fourth, what do you call to PSV’s success in 2005-2007, because they had Alex on loan from Chelsea?
I can also create a fancy name for it, “third party something”.
A third party owned 100% of Alex, and he was in Holland because he couldn’t get a work permit to play in England yet (not enough caps).

Is this honest, to explain PSV’s success with one 100% “third party something” example?
I think things are a lot more complex than that, but apparently you don’t when it comes to explaining why Portugal wins.




Fifth, isn’t there room in “cloud cuckoo land” prophecies for things like players’ talent, coaches’ talent, talent trading in the transfers market, etc?

You just see China vs. India based on population, is it really that simple?




Sixth, Netherlands is way better than Portugal… what?!
1996: draw (both quarter finalists)
1998: Holland wins (Portugal missed WC)
2000: draw (both semifinalists)
2002: Portugal wins (Holland missed WC, eliminated by Portugal)
2004: Portugal wins (Euro semis)
2006: Portugal wins (WC last 16)
2008: draw (both quarter finalists)
2010: Holland wins
2012: Portugal wins (group stage)
2014: Holland wins
2016: Portugal wins (Holland missed a Euro where there’s room for half of Europe)

So, in 11 checkpoints, Portugal wins 5 (four of them in head-to-head), draws 3, and loses 3. Holland only wins when they manage to avoid Portugal.


Should I do the same for clubs? I don’t really think that’s necessary.
Unless the budget ratio is something like 20:1 or 30:1 (like PSV-Estoril), the Portuguese teams (almost) always wins.




Seventh, Holland is historically bigger than Portugal, both club and country, I give you that.

However, unfortunately they are no longer a threat, they gave up playing football and now they became an excuses factory.

They no longer have to worry about Portugal anymore; nowadays their rivals are the likes of Turkey and Czech Republic (club and country) or even Iceland (country).

Unlike you, that wish Portugal to fall, I honestly wish Holland to rise again.
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

Duketown wrote:For what reason would I nuance reality? I don't make up those figures...
That this discussion is drifting on non-arguments isn't my fault.

Some questions that could add to this topic:
Is there a 50+1 rule in Portugal?
Who is paying/owning stadiums?
How do Portuguese club think about debt-reduction?
What are Portugal's plans to improve it's League?
What's the League's turnover?
What's national FA doing to reduce debts?
How and when will fans come to stadiums?
Who should an over-performing league maintain it's position?
50+1 rule…
I’m not sure, all the main clubs are owned by the fans, but maybe that can change in the future.
If the goal is to force Portugal to copy others like England/Italy/France, I suppose part of the copy process involves forcing them to abandon the 50+1 rule.

Stadiums…
The main clubs (Porto, Benfica, Sporting and Boavista) own their stadiums (although probably they are still paying for them. Also part of the “debt” you talk about)
The smaller clubs don’t own the stadiums; they belong to the local authorities.

Debt reduction…
The idea is to do it mostly by increasing revenue, not by decreasing expenses.
New TV deals --> more money
Bigger CL and EL Prizes --> more money
The rest of the World also having more money (new English TV deal, etc) --> make them pay more than they used to when they want players --> more money

I suppose the plan is something like that, not pay everything now instantly and reduce to the size of San Marino or Andorra.


Plans to improve the league…
Improve will be hard. The 4 leagues above are really good; it’s a very hard task to defeat any of them.

League turnover… no idea

National FA actions… again, no idea
They fight a lot about refereeing mostly, every week someone is complaining that they’re being robbed “behind the scenes” and that their rival is the one pulling the strings.

Fans going to the stadiums… who cares?
Selling a few more tickets or not really isn’t a priority.
The Portuguese way isn’t about tickets, tv deals or shirt sponsorship.
The most important thing is trading players. Is that a sin? When someone else wants one of their players, are they supposed to let him leave almost for free? And to replace them, are they supposed to be satisfied with a second rate local player, when they can import a top player from somewhere else (the infamous “influx of South Americans”)?
The second most important thing is UEFA prizes.

Over performing league keeping its position…
That’s only your opinion. I think Portugal is exactly in the place they’re supposed to be.
But on how to keep it… perhaps keeping the ABC sources low on purpose, to keep teams “hungry” for UEFA prizes, will help to keep that 5th-6th position for a long time.
The biggest threats (Russia and Ukraine) apparently will be much more affected by the Dutch behind-the-scenes desperate attempt than Portugal. And the others behind them (Belgium, Holland, etc…), I don’t see them as a threat.
Maybe one day if they grow some balls and start doing things their own way instead of just copying someone else and so, they will become a threat.
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Post by Duketown »

Thunder_PT wrote:Dude, you're obsessed with the supposed downfall of everyone.

..

Is this all wishful thinking? Hoping Portugal, Russia, Ukraine and Turkey all go down so the Netherlands have an open road to the top 6? Won't work like that.
You are uneducated. Why do you think I'm hoping?
Image
Image

Note the number of Doyen clubs ;-) And maybe you can also see the list is growing... You know why? UEFA shifts to 2nd gear: license requirements for all those shady countries and FFP for the rest. But FFP in the Medeterian is easy compared to Northern Europe. Last year, Italy stated if FFP was fully implemented, 16 Serie A clubs would be excluded. So they chose a gradual implementation of FFP. Part by part untill 2020.

It already happened in Russia, Turkey, Ukraine. And it's not just about FFP in those countries; it's also political instability, not fixable with a few $$. Italy and Portugal are next, where Italy already can be seen if you follow the news. Probably Greece will be excluded for UEFA football altogether. And Greece is not the only country where it's FA is a mess....
Last edited by Duketown on Tue Mar 22, 2016 16:36, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by Duketown »

Aliceag wrote:The Downfall was in the mid 90's and since then it has been always up, including NT.

There was a technological shift and knowledge paradigm rift that improved greatly the base conditions since 99.
The Portuguese clubs not only were poor but had no conditions.
Nowadays we have academies and a generation of state of the art coaches and medical staff.
When you have excelent base conditions, money at some point makes no difference anymore.
Similar for most other countries nowadays. Nothing special.
Aliceag wrote:Because what you need is just a nice stadium, decent equipment and human resources. Having those nothing prevents you from raising generations and generations of talented, motivated soccer players, from which some quaresmas, nanis, ronaldos will emerge.
Very true. That's exactly why I'm worried about Portugal: Just partly owning players, hugh stadium payments, which are only half full and huge debts are a cocktail for deterioration. All this in a mickey-mouse league. Current successful transfer model can change in a huge lose any season since Portugal lacks all other turnover. Once quality goes down, UEFA prize money will go down as well and subsequently sponsors-deals will be smaller. TV deal is relatively large so relative growth will be below zero for years to come.
Aliceag wrote:The advantage of Portugal it is not TPO. It's the climate, the language, the cultural motivation of Portuguese youth for soccer, and the scientific knowledge of the coaches. Therefore, even with lower budgets we are competing with teams with 10 times more money and attendances, agains NT with 10 and 100 times more population and we are still being competitive.

If money and number of people were the variable that matters most then China, India and US would be the soccer superpowers.
Also true but again with the wrong conclusion. That infrastructural advantage is being eliminated in no time for MLS, CLS and India. They are building stadiums like it costs nothing and football is growing like mad. I even foresee most transfers from Mediterranean go to those leagues. However, those competition will not join UEFA CL anytime soon so even if the pay 3x times the money, the really good players will stay in Europe. But you're right about the quality of life in Portugal. Please re-read my comment about TPO: http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 00#p290178 and this: http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 62#p289962

Please educated yourself. Iberian and the rest of Mediterranean are next on UEFA's hitlist. Probably all Greece clubs are excluded and the fight against TPO will enter fase 2 (while FFP is also strengthened in those countries; no more excuses accepted by UEFA and EU).
Last edited by Duketown on Tue Mar 22, 2016 19:32, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Duketown »

Dragonite wrote:
Duketown wrote:For what reason would I nuance reality? I don't make up those figures...
That this discussion is drifting on non-arguments isn't my fault.

Some questions that could add to this topic:
Is there a 50+1 rule in Portugal?
Who is paying/owning stadiums?
How do Portuguese club think about debt-reduction?
What are Portugal's plans to improve it's League?
What's the League's turnover?
What's national FA doing to reduce debts?
How and when will fans come to stadiums?
Who should an over-performing league maintain it's position?
Dragonite wrote: 50+1 rule…
I’m not sure, all the main clubs are owned by the fans, but maybe that can change in the future.
If the goal is to force Portugal to copy others like England/Italy/France, I suppose part of the copy process involves forcing them to abandon the 50+1 rule.
No, UEFA loves 50+1 rule!
Dragonite wrote: Stadiums…
The main clubs (Porto, Benfica, Sporting and Boavista) own their stadiums (although probably they are still paying for them. Also part of the “debt” you talk about)
The smaller clubs don’t own the stadiums; they belong to the local authorities.
So smaller clubs will stay small forever and the bigger clubs might pay lots of money to use it's stadium. Those stadiums can't even be filled on normal matchdays.... This is not a healthy situation to be in.
Dragonite wrote: Debt reduction…
The idea is to do it mostly by increasing revenue, not by decreasing expenses.
New TV deals --> more money
Bigger CL and EL Prizes --> more money
The rest of the World also having more money (new English TV deal, etc) --> make them pay more than they used to when they want players --> more money

I suppose the plan is something like that, not pay everything now instantly and reduce to the size of San Marino or Andorra.
Next step in FFP is debt reduction. It's already implemented in The Netherlands. ;-)
Welcome to the common sense world...
Dragonite wrote: Plans to improve the league…
Improve will be hard. The 4 leagues above are really good; it’s a very hard task to defeat any of them.
Dragonite wrote:Over performing league keeping its position…
That’s only your opinion. I think Portugal is exactly in the place they’re supposed to be.
But on how to keep it… perhaps keeping the ABC sources low on purpose, to keep teams “hungry” for UEFA prizes, will help to keep that 5th-6th position for a long time.
The biggest threats (Russia and Ukraine) apparently will be much more affected by the Dutch behind-the-scenes desperate attempt than Portugal. And the others behind them (Belgium, Holland, etc…), I don’t see them as a threat.
Maybe one day if they grow some balls and start doing things their own way instead of just copying someone else and so, they will become a threat.
True, and even another 6 leagues are better. I would suggest this reading: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Dow ... WNLOAD.pdf
Dragonite wrote: Fans going to the stadiums… who cares?
Selling a few more tickets or not really isn’t a priority.
The Portuguese way isn’t about tickets, tv deals or shirt sponsorship.
The most important thing is trading players. Is that a sin? When someone else wants one of their players, are they supposed to let him leave almost for free? And to replace them, are they supposed to be satisfied with a second rate local player, when they can import a top player from somewhere else (the infamous “influx of South Americans”)?
The second most important thing is UEFA prizes.
are u kidding?
Last edited by Duketown on Tue Mar 22, 2016 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Duketown »

@dragonite: I have no interest in countering all your false statements. So I give you another prediction:

1 May: UEFA involvement
This summer: those countries need to sell players and replace them with youth.
First season: Not a big problem since they have a lot of quality youth players.
Another UEFA review: Still not break-even?
2nd season: Again player sales. Now UEFA results are falling so again no break even.
3rd season: complete new squad compared to 2 years ago and again terrible UEFA results. Hopefully break-even is reached.
Result: Portuguese teams will at least cut of €50 million of their combined budgets.

Better TV deal? Not so much
Better Sponsordeals? Not so much.

This snowball will bring common sense to the places where it's needed: Eastern Europe and Mediterranean.
Last edited by Duketown on Tue Mar 22, 2016 19:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

No, I’m not kidding.
The day the biggest slice of the “pie” in any of Portugal’s clubs doesn’t come from trading players, I’ll be very worried about them. It means they’re doing a terrible job.
The day the second biggest slice doesn’t come from UEFA prizes I’ll also be worried about them, it means they’re doing a terrible job.

If the average attendance is 20.000 or 30.000 or even 40.000 is irrelevant, that’s peanuts.
The 20.000 x 15 home matches x 20€ = 6M€.
6-12M€ (attendances from 20.000 to 40.000) is nothing, the UEFA prize money is supposed to be much more (unless the results are terrible), and selling just one player should also be enough to get more than that.


Your predictions are just wishful thinking, the worst case scenario (best case scenario in your Portugal hater point of view).
You talk about selling players as if that was a problem, a setback that will ruin the plans. Selling players is part of the plan; it’s not something they’ll do because UEFA forces them to.

And then in cloud cuckoo land the money will be used to pay debts instantly, not reinvested.
And the few left for reinvestment (10%?) will be wasted in bad players.
So in the next cycle there will be no longer valuable players to sell, and Portugal will become like San Marino or Andorra.


Keep dreaming!
It’s 100 times more likely that Portugal will be #1 in 2020 (and the probability for that is less than 1%).


It would be nice if you answered to some of the questions I asked.
Why not GDP rankings?
Is there something wrong with the club bonds I mentioned?
And also, what’s the problem with having partners that share the risk (when it’s time to buy) and then the reward (when it’s time to sell)?
Why will the rules be so effective in 2026 when they were so ineffective over the last 60 years?
Alex’s time in PSV in 2005-2007 was third party what?
Is trading players a sin?
Aren’t there huge countries with no decent players and/or coaches, and aren’t there smaller countries with an abundance of good players and/or coaches?
Was Holland (club and/or country) better than Portugal over the last 20 years, and can it be easily explained with childish expressions like “influx of South Americans”, “TPO”, “debt”, etc.?
Shouldn’t Holland forget Portugal for a while and focus on more urgent opponents like Czech Republic, Turkey?


Thanks in advance for the answers, and thanks again for this wonderful topic! :D
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Post by Duketown »

I have not much interest in discussing your strange world views. But I've time...

TPO is all over Europe but specifically in Iberia it's most part of it's financial success. PSV (Ajax and Feyenoord) are also dependend on player sales. However, Dutch clubs without TPO won't look much different than with; heck, they have lots of cash reserve. In Portugal it means direct sell of players to compensate losses; we buy a player with our own money.

It's not about GDP. Check the links I've posted and you see listed 65 reasons why Portugal is overperforming and The Netherlands are under-performing. GDP is just one reason, but yeah, it's an important metric in the money business of football.

If we talk history:
1> 3 Silver and 1 Bronze WC medals (fresh and old medals)
2> 1 Golden and 3 silver EC medals
3> After Germany and soon Spain, we are ranked 3 in EC appearance.
4> We have been FIFA-ranking leader;
5> Historically we can even compete France, England and Spain in terms of success, both in WC and EC.
6> I can add a similar list for club football. You want it?

Did you even read anything I posted earlier? Then you would know history is totally unimportant for current day UEFA club football or future results. It's great that Porto and Benfica managed this far, but times are over. It takes a few years to reflect on UEFA Country Ranking (it's an average of 5 years) since this is just the beginning. In 2 years it will reflect results and in 5 years ranking. Then it's just common sense to understand Portugal position isn't in top 10.
Dragonite wrote:If the average attendance is 20.000 or 30.000 or even 40.000 is irrelevant, that’s peanuts.
The 20.000 x 15 home matches x 20€ = 6M€.
6-12M€ (attendances from 20.000 to 40.000) is nothing, the UEFA prize money is supposed to be much more (unless the results are terrible), and selling just one player should also be enough to get more than that.
Enjoy 2 Monaco's in a league without fans, whaha... Yes, this will draw great players to Portugal, especially since it has a nice climate. What kind of sportsmen (besides some children who earn more money then their whole family ever did) would choose that league?
Last edited by Duketown on Sat May 13, 2017 20:14, edited 9 times in total.
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Post by Dragonite »

One last question, if Porto, Benfica, Braga are so “shady”/”dirty”/whatever, why haven’t they been included in any of UEFA’s hall of shame yet?
They never broke UEFA’s FFP rules, as ridiculous as they may be.
Is the information they gave to UEFA false, and UEFA hasn’t realized yet, only the enlightened #1 fan knows better? :confused:
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Post by Duketown »

Dragonite wrote:One last question, if Porto, Benfica, Braga are so “shady”/”dirty”/whatever, why haven’t they been included in any of UEFA’s hall of shame yet?
They never broke UEFA’s FFP rules, as ridiculous as they may be.
Is the information they gave to UEFA false, and UEFA hasn’t realized yet, only the enlightened #1 fan knows better? :confused:
UEFA is fully aware. They simple don't have the intention to destroy football. They just went easy on the Mediterranean since if the would apply Northern European FFP, 80% of those clubs would be in trouble. This is 5-10 year old news. So UEFA focused on Eastern Europe (as you can see mostly license requirements). In the meanwhile FFP rules are fine-tuned, FA's have better regulation and TPO is confirmed by EU. Next focus is Mediterranean. And not just UEFA with FFP.. Also EU would love to have some money back. Besides, TPO fight is just starting but for now UEFA (backed by EU) mades great progress. However, fighting TPO is really slow so expect another 1000 court cases coming. Still, UEFA has no intention in softening requirements. They can implement rules and requirements at will; countries and clubs can choose not to participate at will. But in the end, UEFA has the final say how competition is run.

Also UEFA and me aren't here to shame anything; just bringing some common sense. The shady part is that TPO drains football and money vanish in tin air. That needs to stop, all patriotic comments aside.

Also said this before so start educating yourself!! I'm not going repeat myself untill the 1st of MAy.
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Post by Dragonite »

Yes please, let’s talk about the past, and we’ll all be talking about the same thing.
When it comes to the “expected future”, every person has his own expectation and we’re all talking about different things.

Holland was a brilliant football nation (club and country). They were a superpower in the 70’s, where they won 4 of their 6 Champions Cups/Leagues, and the NT reached two WC finals.
In the 80’s they were again successful, with that memorable 1988 year.
Then in the 90’s they still had that fantastic Ajax team in 1995.
And then the swansong was Feyenoord 2002, and after that nothing for the last 14 years, and the next years also seem dark.

What explains this?
They have great players, great coaches…
How could they finish behind Iceland, Czech Republic and Turkey in Euro 2016 qualifiers?
How can they lose so many times in club football not against the “big 5” teams that they never believe they should defeat in the first place, but also against teams from much smaller countries?

Do they dream of winning this kind of things again in the near future, or they are satisfied with a secondary role, as long as nobody that according to them should also have a secondary role defies this and embarrasses their excuses?

Do they prefer having a secondary role with Dutch players over having a main role with foreigners? So, playing with Dutch players is more important than winning?

Do they believe that result isn’t the most important thing? “Pretty football” can explain their failures, as their priority wasn’t to score more goals than the opponent?

Are they doing anything else to improve their future beside the intensive behind-the-scenes action where they try to defeat everybody else creating countless “rules” that they wish won’t affect them at all and at the same time will neutralize all the opponents?






And one last question.
If Benfica doesn’t pay its debts, I’m the one that loses €1.000 (or close to it), you lose nothing.
Then why are you concerned about Benfica’s ability to pay its debt while I’m not?! :roll:
Records and Statistics:
:arrow: Champions League (all 141 participants - 1992/1993 to 2019/2020)
:arrow: Europa League (all 215 participants - 2009/2010 to 2019/2020)
:arrow: UEFA Youth League (all 162 participants - 2013/2014 to 2019/2020)
Duketown
Posts: 952
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 02:53
Location: Gaia

Post by Duketown »

Dragonite wrote:Yes please, let’s talk about the past, and we’ll all be talking about the same thing.
When it comes to the “expected future”, every person has his own expectation and we’re all talking about different things.

Holland was a brilliant football nation (club and country). They were a superpower in the 70’s, where they won 4 of their 6 Champions Cups/Leagues, and the NT reached two WC finals.
In the 80’s they were again successful, with that memorable 1988 year.
Then in the 90’s they still had that fantastic Ajax team in 1995.
And then the swansong was Feyenoord 2002, and after that nothing for the last 14 years, and the next years also seem dark.

What explains this?
They have great players, great coaches…
So you do understand The Netherlands is more succesfull than Portugal?
Dragonite wrote: How could they finish behind Iceland, Czech Republic and Turkey in Euro 2016 qualifiers?
This is an incident due to mismanagement by KNVB and conflicting personalities among national coaches (Van Gaal vs. Hiddink/Blind). Shit happens.
Dragonite wrote: How can they lose so many times in club football not against the “big 5” teams that they never believe they should defeat in the first place, but also against teams from much smaller countries?
Because our 2003 national FFP rules are more stringent than UEFA FPP rules in 2015. We changed our football to have an everlasting model. This cannot be said about Portugal were you #5 club is smaller than our #20. Besides our topclubs can withstand 3 years of sportive and financial failure; yours need to sell directly if anything happens (TPO, FPP, bad luck in groupstage, bankrupt sponsor).
Dragonite wrote: Do they dream of winning this kind of things again in the near future, or they are satisfied with a secondary role, as long as nobody that according to them should also have a secondary role defies this and embarrasses their excuses?
National team will remain successful now and then. But unlike Germany, Italy, Brazil we are dependend on generation since we don't have 100 players to choose from; only 30 per generation.
Dragonite wrote: Do they prefer having a secondary role with Dutch players over having a main role with foreigners? So, playing with Dutch players is more important than winning?

Do they believe that result isn’t the most important thing? “Pretty football” can explain their failures, as their priority wasn’t to score more goals than the opponent?
What makes you think this? Who said anything about this? Current PSV success is partly thanks to Moreno, Guardado, Arias, Lestienne. This is similar to your pro-portugal arguments: Those players prefer playing for champion and CL football above anonymous career in Spanish League.
Dragonite wrote: Are they doing anything else to improve their future beside the intensive behind-the-scenes action where they try to defeat everybody else creating countless “rules” that they wish won’t affect them at all and at the same time will neutralize all the opponents?
Did you see this: http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 90#p284390
We don't need a tournament to improve our League ;-)
btw: Nice stadium Pacos is building. It's similar to an amateur team in The Netherlands. Only difference is that this amateur team draws more fans.
Interested in football economics, trends, TPO, FFP, annual reports, stadium development & transfers. Accurate sources are Football leaks, UEFA club reports 2016, UEFA benchmark reports, KPMG, Deloitte, Asser Institute, CIES, FifPro.
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