Downfall of Portuguese football League

[Dragonite]

I don’t care about Football leaks, not my problem.
But since you talk so much about it, I got curious.

One of the first documents there is FC Porto’s contract with… JULIAN Lopetegui!!!

After reading that, my curiosity is over.
If they can’t even be accurate with something as simple as a name, why will they be accurate with anything else?


Best case scenario (for you, of course), everything that you say is true and will happen; Portugal will be expelled from UEFA and FIFA and why not from planet Earth…

Why do you care? Why do you waste your time with this?

Why haven’t I seen you commenting the CL or EL groups? Or Euro 2016…?!
Exactly what kind of “football” fan are you?

Your only interests seem to be being a Portugal hater.

I’ve already explained you that these “partners” were a consequence of the success, not a cause. So you’re pretty much wasting your time if you think that by attacking them you’re attacking Portugal too – you’re not. Perhaps you’re even doing them a favor.

[LeRonio]

Duketown, you criticize Portugal for taking too much risk, being bankrupt and show us Dutch clubs like a roll model for the last 10 years Of course Holland fell down in UEFA ranking from 7 posittion in 2006 to 13 position this year, and you say that everyone should follow dutch clubs
You say

Dutch clubs without TPO won't look much different than with; heck, they have lots of cash reserve

well that is not very smart as you think, and this is why : inflation in football is huge,escecially for the last 5 years F.e. 5 years ago you could buy really good player for 20 million euros, now you can buy only average player for the same amount. If inflation is high in any country, people are trying to get rid of that currency and change it to other currency or trying to buy some goods, because it is not smart so save currency when it looses its value so quickly! Lets say Ajax have 20 million euros two years ago, and they decided not to bye new players, but to keep these money like a reserve ( you think this is good idea). But now lets think what kind of player they could buy 2 years ago and what can they buy now ? But if Ajax 2 years ago would have been decided to bye some players ( or a player ) for 20 millions, maybe then they could qualify to CLGS 2 years in a row and these expenses would turn in to the profit ? And sell right now these players for 40 millions ?
10 years ago Portugal and Holland in club competition were equal, Portugal decided to take some risks, Holland decided to make some "cash reserves" to be more stable. Portugal right now still is a power in UEFA competitions, Holland clubs not. Yes Portugal giants have debts, but they income increases also. Dept is not a problem, if you have an income, and they income is increasing also

Last but not least, Benfica, Sporting and Porto all have new TV deals in the future, more advantageous than the previous deals. They increased 50%, perhaps even more (like from €19M/season to €30M+/season)

and as long as this debt keeps at the same level, there is not a problem. In worst case scenario,Porto, Benfica can sell they star players f.e. to China, they would pay huge amounts for them, and only then they would fall to the Ajax or PSV level

[subway14]

well I can't imagine Portugal ever falling below 7th position, the gap is really big there and the teams below aren't as good

although Portuguese clubs except the top 3 and Braga are really weak, not even EL level

[Duketown]

Leronio:
I'm not the one dragging in history or the comparison with Dutch football. And I agree that one of the Dutch problems is it's conservative investment model, even saving cash! Still, I like it better than overspending, mis management, corruption, human trafficking, money laundry, tax evasion, cheating UEFA rules, player agents draining football, etc.

I mention financial position of Portuguese football to outline they can't absorb any setback. UEFA compitition and/or transferbans can be a disaster for Portuguese football. Ofc, they will survive (by selling players or even the club) but things will be different. Like Post-football-leaks-era. Similar milestone like CL introduction or Bosman arrest.

Have you noticed what happened to Twente, Anzhi, Kuban Krasnodor, Rubin Kazan, Dynamo Moskou, Trabsonspor, Bursaspor, Galatasaray, Dnipro and Metalist lately? I've seen UEFA's impact on those clubs and if you study Twente case, first 18bis case, you'll understand what's heading towards Portugal, Monaco, Valencia and more to come (??Roma, Inter, Milan, Seville, Atletico??).

@dragonite: see my sig

I’ve already explained you that these “partners” were a consequence of the success, not a cause. So you’re pretty much wasting your time if you think that by attacking them you’re attacking Portugal too – you’re not. Perhaps you’re even doing them a favor.

Pff, those TPO investments are allowed, but things change when breaking 18bis. So it doesn't matter if TPO/TPI is good or bad. It's here to stay in 1 form or another.

Since you remain arguing this is an insurance and don't bother to understand 18bis, it's pointless discussing with your outdated FANtastic views. Maybe should start another topic called "The success off Portuguese football and all the greatness of TPO.".

[LeRonio]

Have you noticed what happened to Twente, Anzhi, Kuban Krasnodor, Rubin Kazan, Dynamo Moskou, Trabsonspor, Bursaspor, Galatasaray, Dnipro and Metalist lately?

Dont compare clubs from Ukraine and Russia to Porto or Bencifa. Clubs from Russia and Ukraine that you just mentioned were just a toys in the hands of local oligarchs- billioniers. These "new russians" Oligarchs from these countries were just competing with each other who will spend more money for luxury cars, yachts football players etc. There are a lot of jokes about they way of life , but the war in Ukraine and after that huge economical difficulties have the impact even for these oligarchs, or some of them just get bored playing live Football Manager, and they just get ride of these clubs
About Turkey i cant say anything, i dont know they situation, but i will not be surprise if they have something similar to Russia or Ukraine

[bjkman1903]

Have you noticed what happened to Twente, Anzhi, Kuban Krasnodor, Rubin Kazan, Dynamo Moskou, Trabsonspor, Bursaspor, Galatasaray, Dnipro and Metalist lately?

About Turkey i cant say anything, i dont know they situation, but i will not be surprise if they have something similar to Russia or Ukraine

Not really.
I'm not sure why Duketown gave Turkish teams as examples (maybe because of the ban from European competitions) but you can't really compare Galatasaray's situation with Metalist or Dinamo Moscow.

True that there are economical difficulties but players with high wages such as Sneijder are still playing in Turkey. And it is not likely that these Turkish teams mentioned above might get relegated anytime soon.

[Dragonite]

Duketown,

You can keep accusing Portuguese teams of whatever you want, I don’t care, and sometimes it’s even funny.

Just please, STOP confusing me with Thunder_PT!!

He was the one “crying victory” when Benfica and Porto advanced from the groups, proving your 5 years prophecy wrong after only a few months have passed.

And he was the one comparing “third party ownership” to insurance.


If you haven’t noticed that we aren’t the same person, I advise you to reread what you’ve been writing here and who’s been replying what. Perhaps you’ll be ashamed of some of the things that you wrote and apologize. Or perhaps I’m expecting too much from you.

I'm not sure why Duketown gave Turkish teams as examples (maybe because of the ban from European competitions) but you can't really compare Galatasaray's situation with Metalist or Dinamo Moscow.

True that there are economical difficulties but players with high wages such as Sneijder are still playing in Turkey. And it is not likely that these Turkish teams mentioned above might get relegated anytime soon.

Duketown wishes that two things, FFP+TPO, will remove all obstacles between Holland and its wanted 6th place (they like to sniff France’s butt, they enjoy the scent).
The obstacles are Portugal, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey… and currently even Belgium, Czech Republic and Switzerland.

He doesn’t care about the actions of anyone behind Holland.

All that Turkey has to do for him to leave them alone if letting Holland catch them in the ranking.
Oh, and don’t eliminate them from Euro 2016 (or from future Euro or World Cups) either, that was really rude.

[bjkman1903]

Duketown wishes that two things, FFP+TPO, will remove all obstacles between Holland and its wanted 6th place (they like to sniff France’s butt, they enjoy the scent).
The obstacles are Portugal, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey… and currently even Belgium, Czech Republic and Switzerland.

He doesn’t care about the actions of anyone behind Holland.

All that Turkey has to do for him to leave them alone if letting Holland catch them in the ranking.
Oh, and don’t eliminate them from Euro 2016 (or from future Euro or World Cups) either, that was really rude.

Oh, I see now, thanks.
Sorry that Fener eliminated Feyenoord winning both matches this year then, making your life more difficult in your quest for 6th place..

[Duketown]

Ok, I won't mistake you with thunder_pt. But I only share info..

I named all those clubs to show that sportive result can and will get a real blow once UEFA punishments come. To make it worse those clubs even received mild punishment compared to breaking 18bis, like FC Twente. Technical bankruptcy complexes things further for Portuguese clubs.

After Turkey, Russia and Ukraine, now it's time for Greece, Portugal, Italië and Spain. Clear out the mess they can't fix themselves. Maybe I should open a topic for each of those countries...

[greenbay]

Anyway in many countries so as in Austria it would be very difficult to get a license with such accounting figures. You would need a solid privat investor that guarantees for the debts.

Germany have a licensing system that works well. No club in the three top flights has ever filed for bankruptcy. Simple system. All clubs must present audited cash flow plans in March for the next 15 months, to make sure that can cover next season's budget. If in June a club is i.e. still short of 10 million Euro advertising money expected in that March plan, i.e. no contract yet, they must present a bank's guarantee for the better part of the money. So in case they make only part of that later, they'll cover that from the bank's guarantee.

[Aliceag]

This is actually an excelent opportunity and pretext for Portuguese teams to get rid of expensive players and TPO, and with the management of bold, new scientifically-skilled coaches we have to build teams of Portuguese youth-team players. We have the best U21 squad in the world let's take advantage of it. We have to make profit of the work and players we have been developing. Jardim start leading the way in Sporing, Rui Vitória followed in Benfica and Nuno Espírito Santo already doing that in Porto. I expect to see a lot more Portuguese players coming from U21 and U19 and B teams entering the main teams and less hiring of ridiculous expensive brazilian or spanish players. I see no reason for the overall quality of the teams to decline. If video-referee goes ahead and most of mistakes that harm us are minimized things might even out. I honestly believe Portugal place is between 5-7th, with 3 CL quality teams but unfortunately only 1 EL quality team and generally 2 dead rubbers. It's because of those 2 dead rubbers that we probably end up 7th. Russian and France can compensate having more deptht. But we fall to 7th and then our points are divided by 5 we can surpass them again... we already did this 10-12 years ago....

[Thunder_PT]

Alright, UEFA released some numbers for 2015 (or 2015/16). After a quick look and straight to what matters, Portuguese club assets grew by 10% while debt shrunk by 24%. Revenue increased in all areas (attendances, sponsorship, TV...), attendances grew, profitability is high... I must be missing something.

But the highlight of the report for me was the presence of Mestre da Cor in a table led by Emirates Airlines*

*it was a table of multiple team kit sponsors.

[Duketown]

Alright, UEFA released some numbers for 2015 (or 2015/16). After a quick look and straight to what matters, Portuguese club assets grew by 10% while debt shrunk by 24%. Revenue increased in all areas (attendances, sponsorship, TV...), attendances grew, profitability is high... I must be missing something.

But the highlight of the report for me was the presence of Mestre da Cor in a table led by Emirates Airlines*

*it was a table of multiple team kit sponsors.

Lol... Check again.
1) When you say 24% revenue growth, you mean GATE RECEIPT, which is mostly accountable to +5.000 growth at Sporting. (FYI, this gives an idea about the complete lack of fans in this league).
2) In fact, Portugal has lowest growth rate among top 10 leagues (note: only on UEFA ranking Portugal is a top 10 league. In ALL other regards concerning league averages, it competes with Denmark and the like).
3) The minimal asset growth (among lowest in Europe) is solely due to player valuation; not to confuse with tangible, fixed assets, merchandise or sponsorship.
4) Portugal is mentioned as one of the most predictable leagues in Europe, based on differences in spending power among clubs. (In other words: Mini Mouse won't beat Mickey Mouse)
5) 25% of the players is Brazilian (even excluding those with dual nationality and nationalised players) which normally is a bad sign for future national team. In future, we'll see Brazil II (instead of Portugal) on EC/WC.
6) Portugal and Italy are the only 2 countries with higher Squad cost relative to total revenue (sensible businessmen in any era, country and/or market would name this metric a kamikaze business model). Best case scenario is that some troubled clubs will transform to be oligarchs club, disconnected from it's few fans.
7) Based on all above, Portuguese TV deal is ridiculous high. It's common knowledge Portuguese media is crooked so it's waiting for this scam to be revealed via Football leak's hero John (Portuguese citizen).

http://www.uefa.org/protecting-the-game ... 35355.html

Still, all this is pretty normal in Portugal. However, if you read between the lines, you see the regulations are set up to facilitate player trading, only asset in Portuguese football. The real danger for Portugal is TPO changes (replace player trading with human trafficking) in combination with technical bankruptcy of the 3 only relevant clubs. I probably could say the same for all other clubs, but those are to insignificant to mention. This you can not see in this report. To understand Portuguese coming future, the Twente case will show what's coming to the Mediterranean.

It's time for you to wake up and get real.

[Thunder_PT]

Read again, the 24% figure I mentioned was for debt reduction. How is this not good news? And this was for 2015. And you must have missed Sporting and FC Porto in the table of clubs whose net profit grew the most.

Portugal being the league with the most Brazilians in Europe is nothing new, it's always been like that and, if anything, that number is lower than it used to be. And still only 3 Brazilian players ever played for the Portuguese national team. If you were paying attention, you'd actually be expecting a new Portuguese golden generation coming up.

Finally, let's address the technical bankruptcy. These only have the debt (passive) higher than the assets because on their papers the squad value is insanely undervalued. Sporting just released their report for the 2015/16, let's have a look:
Total Assets: 180,073m
Debt: 355,045m

Now, how much of those 180m is the value of the squad? 32,07m! 32!!! I kid you not, check for yourself, here's the report:
http://cdn.sporting.digitaljump.xyz/sit ... o_2016.pdf

William Carvalho alone is worth more than that. Their current squad is worth about 190m according to transfermarkt (who are notorious for undervaluing Portuguese teams a well, they value William Carvalho at 30m when Sporting have rejected higher offers), not counting with the b team and players loaned out. That, plus the results of the third trimester of last year (July to September), which was Sporting's best ever with profits higher than 60m, and the situation doesn't seem so dark.

[Duketown]

24% debt reduction is good. You can thank UEFA for this: their goal in Portugal is to normalize transfer balans in order to have a sustainable business model.

You can see page 127 that Portugal still has, by far, the worsed debt to liabilities ratio; 170% debt-revenue ratio remains plain silly. Specifically if clubs don't own stadiums. Benfica is among Europe worse with 3.3x debt compared to revenue. CSKA Moskou, Dynamo Moskou and Valencia also stand out.

The real danger isn't even the lack of assets but stagnating transfer money. UEFA and transfer ban remain deadly and the only reason UEFA has been mild for Portuguese teams.

Portuguese football is still like a poker player going all-in every hand they got. One single bad draw away from game over. For now, the Chinese from the other side keep Portugal alive with some crazy transfers. They need another 3 of those crazy transfer years to normalize..