CL reform for the 2018-2021 cycle

including formats, draws, seedings, etc.
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Overgame
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Post by Overgame »

There is simple reason : pairings + seedings + country protection. When you have 2 teams in the first pot AND no team in the lower pots, the probability of avoiding the dangerous teams from the lower pots is quite high.
greenbay
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Post by greenbay »

nemesys wrote:
Overgame wrote:I'd also like to see A LOT LESS of direct spots, but that's another story.
So, bottom line, we are all stating the same?

This is what Uefa decided, hence this is what we get.
We surely won't whine about it. No complains.
The logic behind it, is clear: to compromise.
Clubs like Real, Bayern, Manchester, Juventus, are needed.
At least from 1/8 final the competition is what it used to be, format wise.
And not a bunch of friendlies or useless matches.

Still, this format is not what we would absolutely prefer.

Fair enough?
It's the format that - for the moment - will maximize the big clubs revenues. I can tell only for Germany. Despite the Bundesliga race being already decided before the season starts since a few years and likely for another few years, despite CL being the same year after year, the German pay TV subscriptions have risen massively. So this is obviously what 'Otto Normalverbraucher' wants.
"Put it in your signature to save you the trouble of writing it over and over again."
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Post by nemesys »

greenbay wrote:It's the format that - for the moment - will maximize the big clubs revenues. I can tell only for Germany. Despite the Bundesliga race being already decided before the season starts since a few years and likely for another few years, despite CL being the same year after year, the German pay TV subscriptions have risen massively. So this is obviously what 'Otto Normalverbraucher' wants.
I don't have stats about it, but likely the same can be said for Ottavino Qualunque, who, by the way, is a fanboy of WWE wrestling too! The guy never went to a stadium, never played a match except on a Play Station, knows the name of about 20 players (and their girlfriends names from gossip magazines) but not their position on the pitch, knows 20 to 50 clubs names but has hard time remembering the color of their shirts, never cared to fully understand the rules of the game, but he's happy to pay for this CL.

Who am I to blame him? Who am I to blame Uefa choice to satisfy him?

From a short term minded show business perspective, is absolutely the most logic choice.
No, it isn't yet. Last step is missing: make it an elite Super League of +/- 16-32 clubs.
What are the odds for this last step to happen already within the next two 3 years cycles?
I'd say somewhere around 1.60 would be a fair call.

For each subject not enthusisast about it and not spending money on a PayTV contract to watch it, there will be many new fans world wide willing to put their share of money enthusiastically in it. Everything is cool! I'm fine with this reality. Just wanted to make sure that I understood it right.

Evolution, baby!

Actually, even the average users of these maister Bert pages evolved from unknown nationality geeks wondering about the exact algorithm used by Uefa to calculate the rankings something like 15 years ago, to today's fans of a specific nation cheering for such nation results, and rooting for such nation to get more spots, barely caring about the math behind the rankings. And we are talking about a (football wise) extremely educated and competent niche in these pages, not a generic facebook group!

All in all, the most evident and natural evolution you could get: you cannot deny the reality. The fact that long term wise I'm skeptical about it, doesn't mean that it is wrong, or that it actually matters after all.
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ignjat63
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Post by ignjat63 »

Let us say that UEFA had a firm standing that football is about sport and not about money. And so UEFA would have to go against top clubs. I think that in that case UEFA would have won. For I am certain (as much as one can be) that top clubs would never ever leave their domestic leagues for their own league. It is not the same, but Kasparov said that breaking up with FIDE was his greatest mistake. Too risky in the long run. It is much better to take all the CL money while staying in their domestic leagues. So, I believe that UEFA should have called their bluff. So why they did not? Because they want part of the money too. So I do not think they are cowards (as Dragonite said) but rather thugs like the top teams.

On the other hand, let us admit it guys. If their own league could work and sustain itself with them outside their leagues, then the time has come for such a league whether we like it or not. Our children will love it anyway.
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Post by nemesys »

ignjat63 wrote:Our children will love it anyway.
Or perhaps, the next generations will care about something else anyways, in the same way that we cared about football when we were kids or young men like our fathers, but discarded other things our fathers cared about. Being a common part of our culture, a little part of what we (Europeans of this generation) are today, likely comes from practicing and following a team sport like football since our childhood; but this does not forcefully mean that football is the only possible way to acquire such concepts, or the only possible way to share a common interest on some matter. We cared about it, will they care in the same way about the same things we cared about? Who knows! :)
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Todor
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Post by Todor »

ignjat63 wrote:Let us say that UEFA had a firm standing that football is about sport and not about money. And so UEFA would have to go against top clubs. I think that in that case UEFA would have won. For I am certain (as much as one can be) that top clubs would never ever leave their domestic leagues for their own league. It is not the same, but Kasparov said that breaking up with FIDE was his greatest mistake. Too risky in the long run. It is much better to take all the CL money while staying in their domestic leagues. So, I believe that UEFA should have called their bluff. So why they did not? Because they want part of the money too. So I do not think they are cowards (as Dragonite said) but rather thugs like the top teams.

On the other hand, let us admit it guys. If their own league could work and sustain itself with them outside their leagues, then the time has come for such a league whether we like it or not. Our children will love it anyway.
I think you are spot on here. I was about to write something similar. The more I think about the Super League idea, the less I see how it is going to work, so it should be the top executives in UEFA siding with the top clubs and using the Super League threat as a tool to put all the unpopular ideas through. And given the amount of corruption inside this organisation, it seems very likely.
The other option is that the UEFA Executive body has already reconciled with the idea of the SL and try to make sure UEFA will be part of it, but it looks like a very long shot to me.
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Post by ignjat63 »

I would say the generation thing depends on where one lives in the world. My fathers generation (born in late 1930s) was marked by terrible poverty (consequence of WW1) and then the WW2. From their point of view communism was absolute salvation. Everybody got work, education, place to live, health service (My father - "There was absolutely nothing after WW2, everybody was so poor that without government nobody would finish high school, let alone university. And without government almost nobody would get cured"). My generation took it for granted after a couple of decades (i was born in 1963). So mostly we inherited our parents values. Usually, if parents were against communism, children were too, and the opposite.

But the new generation is again in the hopeless situation. All that the government provided is gone. But the private education sucks to high heavens, private health service is too expensive and to most people unattainable, people are dying now much more then in 1970s and 1980s. Society has been totally ruined by so called liberty (in fact anarchy and wild west kind of way of living). And I really do not know what young people are thinking and if they have any values. Ones that are better in school, finish government universities (which are immesurably better than private) and leave the country and the rest seem to sink into day-to-day living (next week? too far away to plan anything). So, the last thing on their mind is the format of CL.
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Overgame
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Post by Overgame »

Guys, are you real ?

Clubs don't have to leave their domestic league. The top clubs could create a 16 teams Super League, 2 groups of 8 with semi-finals and a final without problem. Or create a carbon copy of the current CL with 32 teams invited (see the European Cup in Rugby). No, UEFA cannot suspend the FA, FIBA tried and lost. No the FA would never suspend the teams, they would probably win in the TAS anyways but I'm pretty sure that the FA and most teams would not want to see the big names thrown away.

Stop thinking that UEFA is the dad of the family with the ultimate power to decide everything.
matt
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Post by matt »

However in excange for the 4 places to the top 4, the top 4 should have one spot less in Europa League, given that in the competition they make too little money and there is too much diversity to satisfy their "leviathan" money-machine.
Anyway with four sure spots in Cl, the team of the top-countries (with few exceptions) won't care about the Europa League, especially the english and the italian teams...
International break hater
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Ricardo
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Post by Ricardo »

Overgame wrote:Guys, are you real ?

Clubs don't have to leave their domestic league. The top clubs could create a 16 teams Super League, 2 groups of 8 with semi-finals and a final without problem. Or create a carbon copy of the current CL with 32 teams invited (see the European Cup in Rugby). No, UEFA cannot suspend the FA, FIBA tried and lost. No the FA would never suspend the teams, they would probably win in the TAS anyways but I'm pretty sure that the FA and most teams would not want to see the big names thrown away.

Stop thinking that UEFA is the dad of the family with the ultimate power to decide everything.
Indeed, uefa-people were just smart enough to keep the money machine that this topfootball is, under the wing of uefa. Until now. They might get some nice bonus for it or not, but they did it to get as much money into uefa from it as possible.

Like i am thinking about migration, because i have to pay too much tax for people who dont want to work, the top teams think about the SL if they loose to much money to uefa. Its a delicate negotiation. These top teams are the main cause of the billion dollar market the CL is. Lets be happy all countries and all teams benefit from it.....
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Post by Ricardo »

When i was young there were smLl butchershops, bakeries, etc. Now theres just the supermarket. The meat, bread, etc. was better in the old days, but its a lot cheaper now, and the better way lost.
Money rules this world. Equity will lose in the end.
ignjat63
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Post by ignjat63 »

Well, OK, so if it is all so clear cut for them, let them have a try, see what comes out of it. Let them lay down the cards, see what they got. And if they can have their own competition within UEFA let them have it then. I really dont see how these compromises UEFA makes are of any good. Let us have a clear situation.

Coz all this blackmail "Give us more or we will have our own way and take it all" sound like they are doing US a favor. Fuck them.
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Aliceag
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Post by Aliceag »

Globalization, Internet, Media, Neo-liberalism.

In the age where information spreads so easily and the world becomes more homogen there is not enough room for diversity. 32 teams are more than enough for the ENTIRE world, like 30 artists are more than enough for the entire fan community of music lovers, and so on...

The media live by constantly updating their "stars". As long as fanbase are no longer attached to local and regional realities, Manchester, Real, Barcelona, Milan, Juventus, Porto, Bayern have fans all over the world. Therefore everyone wants to see those teams year after year after year. There is no need and room in people's minds and hearts for more teams. They will be happy having a "global league" of the same 32 teams.

It's the obvious conclusion for the extreme inequality. The top gets it all. Just like in any global industry where the top concentrates everything and satisfies global needs (amazon, microsoft, etc...).
Play fair and square!
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

Overgame wrote:Stop thinking that UEFA is the dad of the family with the ultimate power to decide everything.
Maybe UEFA doesn't have that power directly, but FAs do for sure. For a club to join a FA, it must comply to the rules. You can simply add one rule, which is violeted when the team plays in superlegue (there were such rules in the past, I remember sanctions were possible if a club played public, registered with authorities, friendly match against a "wild" club, or like when proffesionals were banned from amateur athletic associciations, just like a rule "club can be banned if its racist" or any other rule, you put a rule "club can be banned if playing in xy competition violating the basic principles of whatever") and no CAS can help you there, because clubs are still "free to choose" or whatever to go either with FA (and UEFA) or Superleague.
This can then apply to youth selections and everithing, coaches, referees... But UEFA and FAs are just for the money themselves and they don't do it. They're just footmans of big clubs.

ignjat63, great posts.
UEFA - We care about money. Pravda za Kolubaru!
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Post by Thunder_PT »

Rugby isn't really that good an example. The percentage of European rugby fans that follow club competitions isn't great. The majority follow only the national team (6 nations, WC, even friendlies) and don't care about the leagues or the Heineken cup.

Maybe that'll be the future of football, they make their superleague, the real fans give up, the new fans (American, Asian, etc) are happy for a little while before moving on to some new fad, and they'll realise they shot themselves on the foot. But we'll always have international football...
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