CL Group H: Juventus - Sevilla - Lyon - Dinamo Zagreb

[Malko]

Ithink, Lyon has now to concentrate on EL, even if not all is lost. Important will be to beat Dinamo to let them behind.....i cross my fingers.....
og2002gr, see the problems Lyon has in Ligue 1. And i admit there there are some teams less strong than Sevilla and Juve......

[nogomet]

EL 2010: Villarreal - Dinamo 3-0
CL 2011: Lyon - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2011: Ajax - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2011: Real Madrid - Dinamo 6-2
CL 2012: Dynamo Kyiv - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2012: PSG - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2012: Porto - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: Ludogorets - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: PSV - Dinamo 2-0
EL 2013: Chornomorets - Dinamo 2-1
EL 2014: Celtic - Dinamo 1-0
EL 2014: Salzburg - Dinamo 4-2
EL 2014: Astra - Dinamo 1-0
CL 2015: Bayern - Dinamo 5-0
CL 2015: Olympiacos - Dinamo 2-1
CL 2015: Arsenal - Dinamo 3-0

That's 0-0-16, goals scored: 6, goals conceded: 47

Last time they didn't lose away from home playing group stage football was in November 2010 when they beat Club Brugge 0-2. And Lyon is their only chance of preventing going all the way to 0-0-19, because Sevilla and Juventus are one of the most difficult away games you can find in Europe. Lyon are also in poor form as they lost to Dijon and Bordeaux back-to-back, with 7 conceded goals in total.

Can they do it? Mathematically, it should have happened already.

Update before tonight's massacre:

EL 2010: Villarreal - Dinamo 3-0
CL 2011: Lyon - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2011: Ajax - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2011: Real Madrid - Dinamo 6-2
CL 2012: Dynamo Kyiv - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2012: PSG - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2012: Porto - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: Ludogorets - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: PSV - Dinamo 2-0
EL 2013: Chornomorets - Dinamo 2-1
EL 2014: Celtic - Dinamo 1-0
EL 2014: Salzburg - Dinamo 4-2
EL 2014: Astra - Dinamo 1-0
CL 2015: Bayern - Dinamo 5-0
CL 2015: Olympiacos - Dinamo 2-1
CL 2015: Arsenal - Dinamo 3-0
CL 2016: Lyon - Dinamo 3-0

That's 0-0-17, goals scored: 6, goals conceded: 50

They are one goal shy from an average of 3 conceded goals per match. Goals scored are roughly at 0.33, so they score every third game. But this average hides the fact that 4 out of these 6 away goals came after they were already losing 6-0 (vs. Real Madrid in 2011) and 4-0 (vs. Salzburg in 2014). So in these 17 matches Dinamo scored only 2 goals that actually meant something within the dynamics of the game. Basically, Dinamo score a meaningful away goal every 8.5 matches.

[nogomet]

Update before tonight's massacre:

EL 2010: Villarreal - Dinamo 3-0
CL 2011: Lyon - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2011: Ajax - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2011: Real Madrid - Dinamo 6-2
CL 2012: Dynamo Kyiv - Dinamo 2-0
CL 2012: PSG - Dinamo 4-0
CL 2012: Porto - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: Ludogorets - Dinamo 3-0
EL 2013: PSV - Dinamo 2-0
EL 2013: Chornomorets - Dinamo 2-1
EL 2014: Celtic - Dinamo 1-0
EL 2014: Salzburg - Dinamo 4-2
EL 2014: Astra - Dinamo 1-0
CL 2015: Bayern - Dinamo 5-0
CL 2015: Olympiacos - Dinamo 2-1
CL 2015: Arsenal - Dinamo 3-0
CL 2016: Lyon - Dinamo 3-0

That's 0-0-17, goals scored: 6, goals conceded: 50

They are one goal shy from an average of 3 conceded goals per match.

They've done it!

They managed to concede 4 goals tonight so they reached the 3 conceded goals per match average!

0-0-18, goals scored: 6, goals conceded: 54

[bbb]

The most shameful club in European football.

[nogomet]

Dinamo are truly the San Marino of European club group stage football. No other team comes even close to their statistics.

[bbb]

If San Marino had part of Dinamo's position (monopoly at home, huge money influx, huge talent pool, huge number of shots at European glory - we are talking about 10 consecutive group stage seasons), they would do way better than this pile of shit that still has fans who believe it would be better next season and that this is best what Dinamo has to offer.

If Rijeka do the miracle and win the title, I am convinced in CL qualification and competitiveness there, from start.

[matt]

My idea is that they aren't underperforming at this stage, but they overperform in the summer, thanks often to kind draws...

[nogomet]

If San Marino had part of Dinamo's position (monopoly at home, huge money influx, huge talent pool, huge number of shots at European glory - we are talking about 10 consecutive group stage seasons), they would do way better than this pile of shit that still has fans who believe it would be better next season and that this is best what Dinamo has to offer.

If Rijeka do the miracle and win the title, I am convinced in CL qualification and competitiveness there, from start.

I'm praying for the Rijeka title, but given that our league is decided mostly outside the football pitch - I doubt that "the machinery" will allow them to do it, regardless of their current 6-point lead over Dinamo. Rijeka would comfortably win 2-4 points in this CL group and would look like a serious team in all games.

Rijeka is by far the best Croatian team, competitive in Europe by all accounts. That's why I still cannot get over their bad luck in ELQ3 draw this summer, where they were seeded but drew Istanbul Basaksehirspor, the current leaders of the Turkish league. They were eliminated on away goals after two draws. With them in EL this season, Croatia would've been sure of the top 15 spot in the ranking, and could've even attacked the 13th spot.

[bbb]

My idea is that they aren't underperforming at this stage, but they overperform in the summer, thanks often to kind draws...

Kind draw, yes, and, mostly, huge amounts of luck (vs Ludogorets, goal in 98th minute, three mins after injury time had to end; if they didn't scored, they would have been eliminated from Europe at the very start; they themselves don't know how they defeated Salzburg this summer; or Molde last summer, hardly explainable).

I am a longtime fan of Dinamo but I am boycotting it since 2010. When I still cheered for it and went to games (with lots of other fans), all sorts of tragedies were happening to my club. Idiotic losses. Idiotic goalkeepers and their mistakes. Idiotic passes by centerbacks, idiotic misses by Balaban against Bremen. Idiotic referees... Now, when people who care about it are counted in hundreds, it's totally opposite. They qualify to CL, they defeat Arsenal. Unbeliveable.

Also, they qualify to CL and sell their best players. You can't make any result with that policy. They are like the only club out there that has one goal: qualify and earn money. It rather factory, industry, than a football/sports club. Result is just a burden for them. Playing CL matches is a burden and now gets in their way as they trail Rijeka by 6pts. It's tough to have serious opponent at home and play six games against Europe's finest.

And they pretend that they have to sell to survive. If you qualify to CL and sell one star, getting like 30M+, you don't have to sell your best player after you qualified to the CL, for fuck sake. You can live with that money for 2-3 years. But they say they have to. Minority that still follows that crap agree with them.

Year after year they talk they are still in "elementary school" (each coach talks the same, every post-match interview looks the same) and that getting to the "high school" (which is still far away) is a process. First grade that lasts 10 years. During the same time Ludogorets starts in third division, goes up to first, wins five titles, qualifies twice to CL, qualifies from group stage, gets way better coefficient, builds it's own stadium. Everything without selling any player for any amount worth of mentioning, everything with waaay lower investments. Dinamo, who earned hundreds of millions of Euros and took part in ten group stage seasons in a row, is still first-grader.

They destroyed my club.


@nogomet
Yes, they had two great seasons in EL groups followed by two unlucky eliminations last two seasons. I felt annoyed when they failed to advance against Turks. They put up great fights against Sevilla and Lyon. Both those clubs (I dare to say they are weaker now than they were then) destroyed Dinamo while playing in lower gears. I really hope they win this fixed league and beat the devil from Maksimir.

[nogomet]

They are like the only club out there that has one goal: qualify and earn money. It rather factory, industry, than a football/sports club.

This is the key. Dinamo Zagreb is not a football club. It is a company whose main purpose is to create and sell players for large sums of money. That money is later criminally extracted from the club and used to finance the football mafia (Bentleys and 30meter yachts won't be bought out of thin air), to secure the dominant position in the Croatian league via satellite clubs within the league who will lose the games they need to lose, to grease the "referee wheels", and to finance political protection from legal persecutions.

Football results are only secondary. They invest just enough money into buying players that will allow them to be competitive in the qualifying rounds. But to win points in the group stage you need to have a balanced team in all positions, with a reasonable coach and healthy atmosphere. They have none. If they beat somebody - great. If not, nobody cares, as long as there is UEFA money for CL participation and revenue from selling world class talents to keep the perpetuum mobile going.

[Dragonite]

I must say that I don’t like some of the comments about Dinamo Zagreb here.

The “ten group stage eliminations in a row” thing:
They’re still better than teams that can’t even make it to the group stages.
As far as I know they were never directly qualified, they always had to survive the qualifiers.

The number of “defeats in a row” thing:
Since they were never directly qualified to these groups, these defeats aren’t actually “in a row”, there are some wins between them in the qualifiers.

The alleged “shame” of losing so many group stage matches:
To me, their expected result in this group was always 0-0-6, any point that they may get will be a success.
There were indeed some results over the last years that I considered shameful, like not advancing from the EL groups. But that was already two and three years ago, I won’t be forever attacking them with that.
Plus, their success in the CL qualifiers against FC Salzburg was nice payback for one of those EL failures.

The “money from transfers not having a reflection on team results”:
Yes, they seem to have poor management… like dozens of other clubs around Europe, where the management is even worse. Some have players earning more in one month than perhaps the entire Dinamo squad in one year, and they manage to get even worse results.

The “Rijeka is so much better” thing:
No they’re not. They also were eliminated in two EL groups recently, like Dinamo, but unlike Dinamo they couldn’t even make it to the group stages in all the other seasons.

The “they just want to reach the group stages to get the participation money”:
Here I agree, there shouldn’t exist a participation prize, prizes should only go to teams that are actually capable of not losing matches.
But again, they’re not alone here, there are dozens of other teams in the same situation, just want to collect the participation prize, and aren’t competitive at all.

[nogomet]

The “Rijeka is so much better” thing:
No they’re not. They also were eliminated in two EL groups recently, like Dinamo, but unlike Dinamo they couldn’t even make it to the group stages in all the other seasons.

This is not a fair comparison, because Dinamo have a safety net in the fact that if they lose a tie in CL qualifiers, they still have another shot in EL qualifiers.

Rijeka do not have this luxury, and if they lose a tie - game over.

Rijeka became a serious team when Matjaz Kek took over, in spring 2013. Since then, their European record has been the following:

2013: won in ELQ2, ELQ3 (unseeded), ELQ4 (unseeded, vs. Stuttgart!), in ELGS they had a 0-4-2 record from pot 4
2014: won in ELQ2, ELQ3, ELQ4 (unseeded), in ELGS they had a 2-1-3 record from pot 4
2015: lost in ELQ2 to Aberdeen
2016: lost in ELQ3 to Istanbul Basaksehirspor

In the same time Dinamo's record is the following:

2013: won in CLQ2, CLQ3, lost in CLQ4 to Austria Wien, in ELGS they had a 0-1-5 record from pot 2
2014: won in CLQ2, lost in CLQ3 to Aalborg, won in ELQ4, in ELGS they had a 2-0-4 record from pot 3
2015: won in CLQ2, CLQ3, CLQ4, in CLGS they had a 1-0-5 record
2016: won in CLQ2, CLQ3, CLQ4 (unseeded), in CLGS they will almost certainly have a 0-0-6 record

So, if we look at the qualifier section, they had exactly the same success. Both were eliminated twice before the group stage, but Dinamo had a safety net and were transferred to EL, while Rijeka couldn't do that.

And if we look at the group stages, Rijeka had a 2-5-5 record in two seasons, while Dinamo had a 3-1-20 record four seasons! And do not forget that both times Rijeka played ELGS as a pot 4 team, while Dinamo played ELGS as a pot 2 and pot 3 team. So Rijeka outperformed Dinamo and won more group stage points in half the number of games, against tougher opponents!

If that isn't a proof that Rijeka are better and more competitive Europe-wise than Dinamo, I don't know what is.

[Philipp]

This season Dinamo was just unbelieveable lucky to draw Salzburg in CLQ4. As everybody knows Salzburg suffers under a CL curse and so they dominated Dinamo and should have won both matches, but a deflected shot in 89th minute took Dinamo to extra time where they finished the job. If the matches had taken place in a group stage, Salzburg would have won both clear - just like in ELGS 2014 (4:2 and 5:1).

Nevertheless it looks quite good that Austria can overtake Croatia and take the 15th place. So I hope Dinamo will lose the two remaining matches against Lyon und Juventus too.

[bbb]

I must say that I don’t like some of the comments about Dinamo Zagreb here.

The “ten group stage eliminations in a row” thing:
They’re still better than teams that can’t even make it to the group stages.
As far as I know they were never directly qualified, they always had to survive the qualifiers.

They are, year after year, sure they will take part in CL quals. They have one year to prepare. They, as they say themselves, do their best to look the best in late July/August to get the "fall in Europe". Fall in Europe, group stage, mostly used words and phrases. Group stage, participation fee, 10 mil.

The number of “defeats in a row” thing:
Since they were never directly qualified to these groups, these defeats aren’t actually “in a row”, there are some wins between them in the qualifiers.

Come on, take a look at opponents before 31 August and later. They are absolutely useless factor in group stages for most of time. 0-1-5 in group with PSV, Ludogorets, Chernomorets, 0-1-5 in group with PSG, Porto, Dinamo Kiev, 2-0-4 with Ajax, Timisoara, Anderlecht etc. In it's long history Dinamo was defeated by >3 goals margin only twice. In last ten years it happened nine times.

1-1-20 in CL group stage, 8-5-41 in group stage games since 2007.

Kings of quals, paupers/bums of group stage.

The alleged “shame” of losing so many group stage matches:
To me, their expected result in this group was always 0-0-6, any point that they may get will be a success.
There were indeed some results over the last years that I considered shameful, like not advancing from the EL groups. But that was already two and three years ago, I won’t be forever attacking them with that.
Plus, their success in the CL qualifiers against FC Salzburg was nice payback for one of those EL failures.

Well, you do your utmost not to get trashed year after year, they don't. If you fail this year, you will try to do better next time. When I failed college exam, I did my best to pass next time. If it was up to them, they would try to do it even worse.

The “money from transfers not having a reflection on team results”:
Yes, they seem to have poor management… like dozens of other clubs around Europe, where the management is even worse. Some have players earning more in one month than perhaps the entire Dinamo squad in one year, and they manage to get even worse results.

Name few of those. Name teams that know they will be taking part in next year's European competition year after year and, when they get into it, they fail to progress further from group stage. Not one, not two bu 10 seasons in a row.

The “Rijeka is so much better” thing:
No they’re not. They also were eliminated in two EL groups recently, like Dinamo, but unlike Dinamo they couldn’t even make it to the group stages in all the other seasons.

Five years ago Rijeka stayed in top league on goal-differential or even on better head-to-head. Dinamo, at that time, ruled the league with 20-30 pts in front of second-placed team, already had four or five eliminations in group stage. Since than, Dinamo qualified to another five groups, was never close to qualification. Rijeka was in both occasions one win away from qualification and both times qualified to group stage beating seeded teams.

Rijeka did waaay better than Dinamo. I am sure they will qualify to group stage next season (CL or EL) and will be tough team to beat.

The “they just want to reach the group stages to get the participation money”:
Here I agree, there shouldn’t exist a participation prize, prizes should only go to teams that are actually capable of not losing matches.
But again, they’re not alone here, there are dozens of other teams in the same situation, just want to collect the participation prize, and aren’t competitive at all.

Name few of those. Name few teams that earned so much just from UEFA (transfers aside) and yet look like pile of crap against little bit stronger opposition, totally inferior team, like bunch of 15-year olds against proven seniors. BATE Borisov, Ludogorets, Maribor did waaay better than Dinamo in fewer occasions. Even illustrious Qarabag Agdam will join that list. And all of those invested way less than Dinamo.


You have to live in Croatia and be football fanatic to see our point, to see why we talk all of this.

[Dragonite]

Rijeka was in both occasions one win away from qualification and both times qualified to group stage beating seeded teams.

2013/2014:
1st Lyon 12 points
2nd Betis 9
3rd Guimarães 5
4th Rijeka 4

Rijeka vs Betis – two draws

How was Rijeka one win away from advancing?
If you replace a draw for a win, Rijeka goes from 4 to 6 points, Betis from 9 to 7, Betis would still be above.

2014/2015:
1st Feyenoord 12 points
2nd Sevilla 11
3rd Rijeka 7
4th Standard Liège 4

Rijeka vs. Sevilla – one draw and one defeat
Here you are correct, if you replace the defeat for a win, Rijeka would have 10 points, Sevilla only 8, and Rijeka would advance

Anyway, welcome to the club, of teams that were one win away from eliminating Sevilla in the EL over the last 3 seasons (Maribor, Betis, Porto, Valencia, Benfica, Borussia Monchengladbach, Villarreal, Zenit, Fiorentina, Dnipro, Molde, Basel, Athletic Bilbao, Shakhtar, Liverpool…)

It would have been a lot easier vs. Feyenoord.