EL Round 2 (Last 32) [2016/17]

Champions League, Europa League, Conference League
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Malko
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Post by Malko »

great...

In Manchester-Saint-Etienne, the Pogba Pa and the Pogma Ma were there, each one wearing a shirt half ManU, half ASSE:
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BurningStorm
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Post by BurningStorm »

Malko wrote:Burningstorm i think it's more the AfD rising dangerously that makes the greek people act like that......and i can understand.
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Bullshit. Good example that you shouldn't talk about German things. They don't even know this party and they did it already 4, 5 years ago when the AfD didn't exist. And I doubt that AfD would "hurt" them more than Merkel (very funny if you think that), they would leave the EU if they had the power in Germany, so all problems between both countries solved. :mrgreen: But let's not talk about politics here.

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My top favorites for the EL win: Shakhtar, Roma, ManUnited, Schalke.
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AlanK
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Post by AlanK »

Thunder_PT wrote:Roma winning at the Madrigal and APOEL in San Mamés! What's happening with Spain? :o
We've had weeks as bad as this one, and maybe even worse, but ¡Válgame Dios! this week was a real disaster as far as play and results--Barça all but out, Villarreal even worse, since the drubbing was at home, Celta having little hope . . . Athletic manages a 3-2 win, and Real looked decent, so a total wipeout it wasn't, but the pendulum swings; the wheel of fortune spins, and it looks as though we're on our way to a season not unlike 2004-2005 (one team, Villarreal, made it as far as quarterfinals--in the EL equivalent), 2007-2008 (Barça made it to semifinals), or 2012-2013 (Barça and Real ripped asunder in first legs of CL semis).
"Past performance is no guarantee of future results."
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Malko
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Post by Malko »

"they did it already 4, 5 years ago when the AfD didn't exist.".....and the refugee problem also not.....
Germany leaving the EU would be a suicide.
But it is true Merkel did a desastrous policy concerning Greence, forgetting that it is Germany that took the most profit ever from the europeen help-money.
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Forza AZ
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Post by Forza AZ »

Malko wrote:great...

In Manchester-Saint-Etienne, the Pogba Pa and the Pogma Ma were there, each one wearing a shirt half ManU, half ASSE:
Also the 3rd Pogba-brother was there, who is playing for Sparta Rotterdam right now. He had to be back however this morning at 10am for training again, so he probably had a short night. :lol:
Lorric
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Post by Lorric »

By the way, Tottenham (before the first leg) slashed the prices of a ticket at Wembley for the 2nd leg vs Gent. The place will be full for the match. They'd already sold over 80,000 tickets before the first leg.
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Post by Patty_Schnyder »

FT FC Krasnodar 1 - 0 Fenerbahce 55-45
FT AZ Alkmaar 1 - 4 Lyon 01-99
FT Astra Giurgiu 2 - 2 Genk 23-77
FT Borussia Moenchengladbach 0 - 1 Fiorentina 23-77
FT Celta Vigo 0 - 1 Shakhtar Donetsk 17-83
FT FC Rostov 4 - 0 Sparta Prague 99-01
FT Gent 1 - 0 Tottenham Hotspur 45-55
FT Ludogorets Razgrad 1 - 2 FC Koebenhavn 15-85
FT Olympiacos 0 - 0 Osmanlispor FK 45-55
FT Anderlecht 2 - 0 Zenit St. Petersburg 73-27
FT Athletic Bilbao 3 - 2 APOEL Nicosia 60-40
FT Hapoel Beer Sheva 1 - 3 Besiktas 01-99
FT Legia Warszawa 0 - 0 Ajax 42-58
FT Manchester United 3 - 0 Saint-Etienne 99-01
FT PAOK Thessaloniki FC 0 - 3 Schalke 04 01-99
FT Villarreal 0 - 4 Roma 01-99
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Post by Thunder_PT »

AlanK wrote:
Thunder_PT wrote:Roma winning at the Madrigal and APOEL in San Mamés! What's happening with Spain? :o
We've had weeks as bad as this one, and maybe even worse, but ¡Válgame Dios! this week was a real disaster as far as play and results--Barça all but out, Villarreal even worse, since the drubbing was at home, Celta having little hope . . . Athletic manages a 3-2 win, and Real looked decent, so a total wipeout it wasn't, but the pendulum swings; the wheel of fortune spins, and it looks as though we're on our way to a season not unlike 2004-2005 (one team, Villarreal, made it as far as quarterfinals--in the EL equivalent), 2007-2008 (Barça made it to semifinals), or 2012-2013 (Barça and Real ripped asunder in first legs of CL semis).
It's being more difficult than they thought, but Athletic should still go through. So Spain could still win both competitions again.
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Post by og2002gr »

bjkman1903 wrote:Osmanli drew in Greece - well done. They tried to score from counter-attacks but didn't really find great chances. Olympiakos was logically the team which attacked the most however did lack creativity in attack. Stupid red card by the home team player as well, which was totally unnecessary.
Osmanli has already achieved a great campaign so far (and not by luck as some people suggest, as they also had to beat teams like Midjilland or Villarreal on the way) and anything can still happen in Turkey. 50-50 still
Guessing you are referring to a comment I made, I will try to analyze what I meant.

I believe Osmanlispor had the ideal draw! A team with no european history (except an Intertoto participation more than 10 years ago), with the minimum co-efficient who was lucky to confront the easiest opponents.

In EL QR2 they were seeded and they would the favorite against most (if not all) teams. They avoided traps like Aberdeen, Qabala etc. and they drew Zimbru Chișinău.

In EL QR3 they were unseeded and most opponents are knock-outs candidates (ex. Alkmaar, Genk, Saint-Etienne, Gent) or teams from the top leagues (West Ham, Hertha, Sassuolo). What Osmanlispor got? Nõmme Kalju! Meaning not only they avoided top teams who even won their Group Stage, but they faced another unseeded team with even fewer co-efficient points!

In EL PO, they were unseeded and all opponents are of higher level. Still they got (maybe) the weakest one: Midtjylland

In Group Stage, it is a race for two spots, so it is important to have at least 2 out of 3 lower-ranked opponents. They took a difficult team from Pot1 (Villarreal), and then they took the weakest team from Pot2 (Steaua), and the weakest team from Pot3 (Zurich, the only 2nd Division team of Europa League!).

So, for a newcomer such as Osmanlispor, with the minimum seeding, what other path could be called as "lucky", if not the one Osmanlispor got?
What opponents would you choose as "weaker" instead of Zimbru - Nõmme Kalju - Midtjylland - Steaua/Zurich to reach EL knock-outs?

I didn't say Osmanlispor is here "by luck". That would lead to other assumption, like they didn't deserve it.
They won the opponents they were given and they even won their group proving their place.
What I say, is that they were lucky, as many teams (at same level or maybe even better) didn't have the chance to prove their own abilities drawing more difficult opponents, too early!
fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues :arrow: fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues :arrow: fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues

http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 52#p359852
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Post by Dragonite »

og2002gr,

Osmanlispor was lucky to face allegedly weak teams in three qualifying rounds?

What about teams that hadn’t to play qualifiers at all, like Celta de Vigo, Southampton, Mainz, Nice, Zorya, Konyaspor?

Plus, if facing Midtjylland is so easy, why couldn’t “lucky” Southampton, Club Brugge and Legia Warsaw go further when they faced them last season?


I don’t like what you guys usually do here.
Before the draws, you divide teams in three groups, the “easy” teams (like Midtjylland, apparently), the “normal” teams, and the “hard” teams.

And then if a team eliminates another labeled as “easy”, it is constantly reminded of that, that they “only” advanced because they faced an “easy” opponent, and that they wouldn’t have survived against a so-called “harder” opponent.

On the other hand, something much stranger happens!!
When a team actually fails against these so-called “easy” opponents, instead of also being constantly reminded of that, it is immediately forgiven, with excuses like “they weren’t ready yet”, “in 10 meetings they would have advanced in the other imaginary nine”, or just “they don’t care about the competition and weren’t giving their best”.


It is not Osmanlispor that should apologize for “only” defeating “easy” Midtjylland instead of allegedly much harder opponents in imaginary clashes, it’s teams like Southampton that should be ashamed of losing real matches (not imaginary ones) against Midtjylland and in the following season somehow get a direct ticket to a stage further despite not being able survive that long in the previous season, while the team that did so much better like Midtjylland again has to go through that all over again.
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Lorric
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Post by Lorric »

He doesn't say Midtjylland are easy, he says all the seeds are of a higher level, but maybe Midtjylland are the weakest of them. That's certainly debatable, but I take that to mean Osmanlispor would have been the underdog against any of them.
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

Lorric, og2002gr (& everybody else i salso welcomed to participate)

This is exactly what og2002gr wrote on August 4th:
og2002gr wrote: From best to worst:

Fenerbahçe
Shakhtar Donetsk
West Ham
Saint-Étienne
Krasnodar
Alkmaar
PAOK
Anderlecht
Sparta Praha
Gent
Panathinaikos
Sassuolo
Racing Genk
Maccabi Tel Aviv
Midtjylland
Qarabağ
Olympiacos
BATE Borisov
Rapid Wien
Slovan Liberec
Austria Wien
Maribor


Grasshoppers
Rosenborg
Osmanlispor
Astana
İstanbul Başakşehir
Trenčín
Crvena Zvezda
Hajduk Split
Qabala
Göteborg
AEK Larnaka
Brøndby
SønderjyskE
Slavia Praha
Arouca
Astra Giurgiu
Beitar Jerusalem
Vojvodina Novi Sad
Lokomotiva Zagreb
Dinamo Tbilisi
Shkëndija Tetove
Partizani Tiranë


Ideal draw:

Fenerbahçe - Partizani Tiranë
Shakhtar Donetsk - Shkëndija Tetove
West Ham - Dinamo Tbilisi
Saint-Étienne - Lokomotiva Zagreb
Krasnodar - Vojvodina Novi Sad
Alkmaar - Beitar Jerusalem
PAOK - Astra Giurgiu
Anderlecht - Arouca
Sparta Praha - SønderjyskE
Gent - Slavia Praha
Panathinaikos - Brøndby
Sassuolo - AEK Larnaka
Racing Genk - Göteborg
Maccabi Tel Aviv - Qabala
Midtjylland - Hajduk Split
Qarabağ - Crvena Zvezda
Olympiacos - Trenčín
BATE Borisov - İstanbul Başakşehir

Rapid Wien - Astana
Slovan Liberec - Osmanlispor
Austria Wien - Rosenborg
Maribor - Grasshoppers

So, like I thought, he sorted the teams (only the colour code easy-normal-hard was missing).

He ranked Midtjylland as the 15th strongest team (from 22).

Although I disagree with the sorting, that’s not the point so I won’t waste more time with that by now.

And then he even had an “ideal draw”, based on this sorting.

Osmanlispor, the 3rd strongest unseeded, “deserved” to face Slovan Liberec, the 3rd weakest seeded.
Instead, they faced Midtjylland, a team that, according to him, was 5 positions higher.

So Osmanlispor was, according to this set of principles, “unlucky”, not “lucky”, and faced a stronger opponent than they “should have”.



Note that I’m not criticizing og2002gr’s previews, that I enjoy reading (I wish there were more forum members like him).

I’m criticizing the double standards, where some teams apparently have to apologize for their “easy” wins when they should be facing “harder” opponents and losing instead, while others have multiple excuses for their real defeats (not imaginary ones).

I prefer to rank teams based on results (UEFA coefficient-like style, with a few differences like 3 points per win, no bonus points, no country contribution), instead of ranking teams based on something else, and then devalue the results that would contradict that alternative ranking.
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bjkman1903
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Post by bjkman1903 »

I don't see what's the issue anyway, luck of the draw is part of the game. The other Turkish team got Shaktar Donetsk for instance, and they were the strongest possible opponent imo.

The teams mentionned like West Ham or Hertha lost against teams like Astra or Brondby. I think that Osmanli would have had a decent chance against them too. They are just famous because they come from bigger leagues, but without any recent European cup success either.

It's already hard for a low seeded team to survive any KO round, and Osmanli did it a few times, won their group coming from last spot (and winning h2h against any team they faced so far). Even if they did not face the strongest possible opponents in each round, the seeded teams were in theory stronger than them anyway, right?
What about Olympiakos? Is that also a lucky draw because Osmanli avoided Spanish teams or Man U? Or we will consider that as lucky draw only if Osmanli advance?
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Overgame
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Post by Overgame »

bjkman1903 wrote:I don't see what's the issue anyway, luck of the draw is part of the game. The other Turkish team got Shaktar Donetsk for instance, and they were the strongest possible opponent imo.

The teams mentionned like West Ham or Hertha lost against teams like Astra or Brondby. I think that Osmanli would have had a decent chance against them too. They are just famous because they come from bigger leagues, but without any recent European cup success either.

It's already hard for a low seeded team to survive any KO round, and Osmanli did it a few times, won their group coming from last spot (and winning h2h against any team they faced so far). Even if they did not face the strongest possible opponents in each round, the seeded teams were in theory stronger than them anyway, right?
What about Olympiakos? Is that also a lucky draw because Osmanli avoided Spanish teams or Man U? Or we will consider that as lucky draw only if Osmanli advance?
I always wonder why people are blaming teams for being lucky, and why the supporters are triggered if someone says "they had some luck".
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Post by Gorandinho »

Why is Schalke-Paok scheduled on wednesday?
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