CL format

Champions League, Europa League, Conference League
nemesys
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CL format

Post by nemesys »

More or less two decades ago, Uefa made the decision to introduce group stage phases in its major competition (and uniform its name all over Europe).

I never liked it, for many reasons which I expressed in several occasions in these forums, but above all what I dislike about it is the fact that what I enjoyed the most, the thrill of a tournament in which the winner goes on, and the loser goes home, i.e. you cannot lose any challenge, it is gone.

I want to see possible, for instance, for Malmoe to eliminate Inter, and for Lokomotiv to eliminate Napoli, in early rounds. And I want to see the destiny of a club to be always in such club hands, not in third parties hands, in a cup competition.

There are championships, played with double round robin.
There are cups, played with knock out systems.

To make an hybrid, a mix and match, has zero appeal to me.

Plymouth Argyle yesterday made 0 0 vs. Liverpool in FA cup. Today this is big news. And suddenly everybody cares about the FA cup, all around Europe. Five years from now, people will remember that match more easily than any match of this CL GS. I think that this should make people think. You need big names to make a cup valuable, but you need such big names to risk an elimination, and bunches of different outsider challengers to make it interesting.

Moreover, no other club, with its performances, can now influence the output of the re match between these two.

When I hear some club presidents speaking with enthusiasm about an under project top European competition which should be made out only of German, English, Spanish, Italian and French sides, I can't help thinking about what the football history would have lost in such way: Ajax, Benfica, Red Star, and so on.

And this is not about romanticism, it is about pragmatism as well. How long will, a competition in which you can lose and continue to play (no dramatic upsets), in which we all realized the matches year after year feature pretty much the same exact protagonists, leaving each the competition at some pretty much predicable stage, be interesting long term? Autumn Uefa football can really be reduced to, more or less, a bunch of European friendlies between big names from major leagues, which generates lots of TV income, for many years to come, and never lose interest, and keep on gaining potential market?

I see some possible evolutions long term:

1. I'm in minority, and the majority of people do prefer this kind of hybrid format, which is neither a cup nor a league, and this we will keep;

2. the appeal for the novelty of many clashes between giants from top league since the early stages of the competition will end, soon or later, the TV revenues will drop, and sometimes in future the format will go back to a pure KO system for the whole competition.

3. no matter what, an elite closed Super League will eventually be formed, adopting a more or less pure round robin system competition model across the major countries (club football wise) of Europe. That's the future of the top level European football competition, with or without Uefa direct involvement.

What are your opinions?

Cheers! :)
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

Great post.

1. for now... untill 3. will prevail.

It's not about drama or appeal, it's just numbers nowadays and sadly more people tend to watch X-Y friendly than interesting and dramatic CL qualifier Željezničar-Slovan. I would really like to see if they would at least make EL pure knock-out competition, I would love to watch those games. But that is not reality, big clubs don't want to risk early elimination and money lost, that's why they created leagues in the first place.
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

krdel wrote:Great post.

sadly more people tend to watch X-Y friendly than interesting and dramatic CL qualifier Željezničar-Slovan.
Ok, Željezničar-Slovan has little appeal.

What about a round 1 of CL
Real - Željezničar
Manchester United - Slovan
with the loser going home?

You don't need to include all the national Champions, you don't need to rewind history about giving, e.g. 4 participants to Spain, England and Germany, but if you have 128 clubs into it, you can in the same number of matches to the final, give a chance to Real or Barca to play a club unseen in the previous season.

Then 95% of the times, the giant will win like 7-1 aggregate with little history, and silly tricks being performed on the pitch.
But that other 5% of the times, you have something like this show:
"...so, they were lucky and won at home 1 0: the giants couldn't score. Then second leg is at the stadium of the giants, with the giants up 2 0 at half time, missing the 3rd goal few times. At minute 70 they slowed down the pace, no big threat from the opponent. Then minute 86, the coach of the other club takes out two defenders and brings in two forwards, one of them scores on the first corner kick they got the whole match, on a distraction from the defense: 2 1. Now Real attacks like crazy for the reminder of the match, the goalie saves everything, up to minute 94, when the giant is awarded a PK: ...missed! The giants out from CL in round two!; or ...scored! The giants confirm them self as an undefeated club in this competition!".

See? Something to remember. And even if not, it still better than what we have: with GS of six match days, the weight of an epic match is so diluted, that it means nothing: did BATE, defeating Real, qualify to the KOs? No. There is no more sport epic in Autumn Uefa matches, nothing to remember, just some "football product" being delivered in your house, and that's sad.

Ah... of course, just my personal opinion. :)
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Arges Pitesti
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Post by Arges Pitesti »

nemesys wrote:
3. no matter what, an elite closed Super League will eventually be formed, adopting a more or less pure round robin system competition model across the major countries (club football wise) of Europe. That's the future of the top level European football competition, with or without Uefa direct involvement.

I would be a suicidal move from a financial point of view. Round robin without playoffs works in nation country, where teams fight each other for different goals:

-title
- CL spot
- EL spot
- relegation race

So, in national championships we are almost sure to see at least some interesting matches till the last weekday.

Bringing this model to Europe, it will lead to lots of meaningless matches in the last weekdays...
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Arges Pitesti wrote:Bringing this model to Europe, it will lead to lots of meaningless matches in the last weekdays...
Unfortunately, it seems to me that football fans in general do not care. Actually few of them don't even understand the concept of the difference of identity between a tournament in which the loser goes home for the season (e.g. NCAA Basketball March Madness), and a tournament in which all sides play the same round robin matches, or the same regular season number of matches before playoffs (NBA Basketball).

To my eyes, a football European cup should be made of KOs, without any "meaningless match" (using your expression), so you are knocking on an open door with me on the matter, but I have the strong feeling that football fans in general have different opinions, and that after all it is true that for them, even if in a meaningless match, the presence of their favorite club means more than the format of the tournament. I don't give a sh!t about the names of the clubs involved, in name of a pure KO system.

So, in the end, maybe if you take the 20 most popular clubs in Europe, and make an elite closed super league, you'll end up generating way more money than a cup system. Even with exhausting round robins, delivering football on weekly basis, without any "magic" (stealing Matt expression) in such games, you'll make an economic gain. Probably such toy will never break, who knows.

However, I spoken more than enough.
It is just a football tournament after all, I won't truly care that much.
I watch other sport events, which appeals me more. Easy solved.
I just wonder if others think the way I do about it, sometimes. That's all.

Thanks for the reply.
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Aliceag
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Post by Aliceag »

We have already discussed this numerous times and the conclusion is ALWAYS the same.
Every fan wants to see their team plays the maximum number of games in Europe no matter what or against whom.
The perfect model is the one that would allow more teams to play more games. A benfica fan, a tromso fan or a basel fan they all want their team to play 6,10 games in europe not just a KO game where they can lose after 2 games.

That's why GS were invented and why walking through a system of leagues would be appreciated.

Any system that favour early KOs is doomed. KO can only exist after we guarantee that ANY team has at least played 6 games in europe. So either keep the current system, or make REAL european leagues with several divisions and ups and downs independent of domestic leagues.

I for one, would gladly prefer to see Benfica, Porto, Sporting and Braga playing every week against other european teams than against other domestic teams. So I'd replace top tier team domestic leagues with European leagues and only keep domestic cups.
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Kutuz_off
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Post by Kutuz_off »

Bring back Cup Winners Cup in a straight-KO format. I think it's going to happen, especially after cup runner-ups lost their Europa league slots last season. Leave Champions League as is (note that it's a league, not a cup. hurray semantics).
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krdel
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Post by krdel »

Aliceag wrote:I for one, would gladly prefer to see Benfica, Porto, Sporting and Braga playing every week against other european teams than against other domestic teams. So I'd replace top tier team domestic leagues with European leagues and only keep domestic cups.
That's because your liga sagres is crap. I mostly agree with you, but our balkan leagues are also crap. However, most fans from "bigger" leagues would probably disagree with that idea.
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Aliceag wrote:Every fan wants to see their team plays the maximum number of games in Europe no matter what or against whom.
The perfect model is the one that would allow more teams to play more games. A benfica fan, a tromso fan or a basel fan they all want their team to play 6,10 games in europe not just a KO game where they can lose after 2 games.

That's why GS were invented and why walking through a system of leagues would be appreciated.

Any system that favour early KOs is doomed. KO can only exist after we guarantee that ANY team has at least played 6 games in europe. So either keep the current system, or make REAL european leagues with several divisions and ups and downs independent of domestic leagues.

I for one, would gladly prefer to see Benfica, Porto, Sporting and Braga playing every week against other european teams than against other domestic teams. So I'd replace top tier team domestic leagues with European leagues and only keep domestic cups.
Exactly what I was thinking and wondering about. Thanks for the reply, which hits the core of the matter being discussed. For a fan of (insert club name here) better a shitty format with such beloved club being in it for x matches guaranteed, than an appealing thrilling format in which such club can go home after 2 matches. Since in football:
- the fans are in majority compared to people interested in just watching a good sport event with an appealing format, not rooting in a fanatic fashion for a fixed protagonist;
and:
- the fans are the category most willing to pay TV contracts for sport events (I, for instance, never paid such subscriptions);
then Uefa is 101% fully correct to please such category of excellent customers.

If all this above is the case, no wonders that European football formats and access lists in future will be more and more about pleasing big clubs with most supporters and from richer countries, featuring the most possible number of clashes between these, and all this with, and not against, the will of the majority of people interested in the tournament.

This was what I wanted to make sure with my question. Again, thanks for the reply.

Bottom line: I miss the previous format, but I can only respect the fact that it is not what majority wants.

Obviously, the way I am emotionally involved in a sport event (which is tied to the thrill and emotions of such competition itself, its history, cultural value, and the narrative of the protagonists behind it, and not to the participation or victory of a specific side), is a way to live sport which is going extinct (or has already gone extinct). Fortunately, there are other sport events which appeal me more to watch, and tons of other things that I like to do. Abandoning one of your hobbies isn't a bad idea I guess, when such hobby is definitely dried out of any enthusiasm, interest, and gets boring. No big deal, I'll do something else instead. Whatever else which is still cool for me to do. Ba Bye European football. And everyone is happy.

For the third time, thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I wished to know.
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Kutuz_off wrote:Leave Champions League as is (note that it's a league, not a cup. hurray semantics).
First paragraph of the thread:
nemesys wrote:More or less two decades ago, Uefa made the decision to introduce group stage phases in its major competition (and uniform its name all over Europe).
It is a league, it was a cup.
This change was for the better, or for the worst?
That's all what this conversation (which is solved by now) was about.
Thanks for your opinion as well.

Cheers all. :)
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Post by Thunder_PT »

Just a few random quick reaction to some things that have been said:

- In response to Aliceag, no, clubs don't want as many games as possible, not big clubs at least. We've had more games when we had the 2nd group stage (with 16 teams) and the clubs wanted less games.

- it seems to me everyone who defends the old format are people old enough to have seen it. I'll be honest, I started watching football in 98 when the CL already had a group stage. However, that was a time when a Rosenborg or a Sparta Praha were respected CL teams, and I do miss that. Could it be we're all longing for the format that was in place when football excited us the most, even though the excitement was due to the novelty of football and not about the format at all?

- In response to nemesys and the death of a hobby, I've gotta say, I've thought the same. Football is a huge part of my life, but at the same time kinda incompatible with the rest of my life. I really enjoy it, but if it ever loses its magic completely, I suppose in a lot of ways my life will be easier (no more would I have to explain to a girlfriend why it's more important to me to watch the Porto-Benfica classico than whatever she thought we should do (it doesn't help I always date foreign girls, a Portuguese girl would understand), or how dedicating a whole month to watching every match of the world cup is perfectly normal).
nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

Thunder_PT wrote:- it seems to me everyone who defends the old format are people old enough to have seen it. I'll be honest, I started watching football in 98 when the CL already had a group stage. However, that was a time when a Rosenborg or a Sparta Praha were respected CL teams, and I do miss that. Could it be we're all longing for the format that was in place when football excited us the most, even though the excitement was due to the novelty of football and not about the format at all?

- In response to nemesys and the death of a hobby, I've gotta say, I've thought the same. Football is a huge part of my life, but at the same time kinda incompatible with the rest of my life. I really enjoy it, but if it ever loses its magic completely, I suppose in a lot of ways my life will be easier (no more would I have to explain to a girlfriend why it's more important to me to watch the Porto-Benfica classico than whatever she thought we should do (it doesn't help I always date foreign girls, a Portuguese girl would understand), or how dedicating a whole month to watching every match of the world cup is perfectly normal).
This! Exactly. ;)
Thanks for the reply, appreciated.
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greenbay
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Post by greenbay »

Probably they should make CL a 48 team tournament. Groups of 3, first 2 to advance to KO round. Looks promising to me...
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nemesys
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Post by nemesys »

greenbay wrote:Probably they should make CL a 48 team tournament. Groups of 3, first 2 to advance to KO round. Looks promising to me...
I suspect some subtle GreenBay sarcasm here.
You mean, with pk in every GS match, correct? :mrgreen:
In year 2026 maybe. But some kind of round robin international closed Super League, restricted only to top clubs from top countries, with bunches of top clubs indecisive big clashes matches delivered weekly, is more likely to happen by then: this is the evolution that the football customers market worldwide seems the most willing for. Oh well... not really my cup of tea, but that's all, no big deal. :)
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greenbay
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Post by greenbay »

Sarcasm? Me? No, never. I do really support a 48 team CL format. With like 2 additional spots for the Big Four. With like 13 additional spots for Eastern Europe and the Balcans. With the remaining additional spot for the winners of the north-oceanic qualifying zone of Faroes, Greenland and Iceland. But sarcasm? No way...
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