Europa League 2017/2018: Groups G H I

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bossake
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Post by bossake »

Dragonite wrote:EL experience in Group G squads:
Viktoria Plzen 242, Steaua Bucharest 104, Hapoel Beer-Sheva 148, Lugano 39
Europa League experience means totally appereance of all the players (start up or the whole squad registered) in EL? (groups or including here the qualifiers?)

Steaua in theory is very powerfull, is like a dream team of Romanian Championship. I think (in theory) 70% of the best players from the past years are now at the team (3 players camed this summer from champions viitorul - steaua payed about ~4.5 mil Eur for them) and we have also 5 former players of Astra who in the last 2 years won there the title and passed EL group last year).
But only in theory because we have an unexperienced coach and also an owner who very often makes things that distroys the team morale (criticise a player if he plays badly in a game etc). Also the thing we bringed about 15 players this summer, half of them being transfered quite recently, only after we reached CLPO (and the club was sure will get the ~10 mil Eur from EL) is also a disadvantage.

I still believe Plzen/Steaua/Hapoel Beer Sheva are on the same value and Lugano only a little down, my initial opinion after the draw.
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

bossake wrote:
Dragonite wrote:EL experience in Group G squads:
Viktoria Plzen 242, Steaua Bucharest 104, Hapoel Beer-Sheva 148, Lugano 39
Europa League experience means totally appereance of all the players (start up or the whole squad registered) in EL? (groups or including here the qualifiers?)

Steaua in theory is very powerfull, is like a dream team of Romanian Championship. I think (in theory) 70% of the best players from the past years are now at the team (3 players camed this summer from champions viitorul - steaua payed about ~4.5 mil Eur for them) and we have also 5 former players of Astra who in the last 2 years won there the title and passed EL group last year).
But only in theory because we have an unexperienced coach and also an owner who very often makes things that distroys the team morale (criticise a player if he plays badly in a game etc). Also the thing we bringed about 15 players this summer, half of them being transfered quite recently, only after we reached CLPO (and the club was sure will get the ~10 mil Eur from EL) is also a disadvantage.

I still believe Plzen/Steaua/Hapoel Beer Sheva are on the same value and Lugano only a little down, my initial opinion after the draw.
Appearances in EL (from group stages onwards, so no qualifiers)
You want the detail for Steaua, here it is:
Budescu 14, Júnior Morais 13, Filipe Teixeira 12, William Amorim 12, Momcilovic 11, Pintilii 11, Enache 8, Filip 7, Nita 6, Alibec 5, Ovidiu Popescu 3, Florin Tanase 2

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og2002gr
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Post by og2002gr »

Dragonite,
I don't know why the Salzburg example.
I consider them as a team with hard draws. Paradoxically it is against the "easy" ones they fail.

Secondly dont compare a seeded team with an unseeded. Obviously the first one is expected to have a better/easier draw, even if it is not 100% sure. (Ex. Once upon a time a seeded "hard working" team had to face unseeded ... Atletico Madrid and then unseeded ... Malaga)

What you didn't explain is how an unseeded team A who did little or nothing have a lucky draw, while another team B who did much more (still not enough to get seeded) gets a title contender.
Why team A is considered "hard working", while team B "lazy"?
What did team A do better? Isn't it just pure LUCK?
Draws have nothing to do with the past. It is only LUCK!

PS: since you worked on it, could you please post the full "experience" list ?
fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues :arrow: fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues :arrow: fewer spots :arrow: weaker leagues

http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 52#p359852
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

og2002gr wrote:PS: since you worked on it, could you please post the full "experience" list ?

J: Athletic Bilbao 416
A: Villarreal 323
G: Viktoria Plzen 242
F: Lokomotiv Moscow 209
L: Zenit 198
B: Dynamo Kiev 195
E: Lyon 190
C: Istanbul Basaksehir 178
F: FC Copenhagen 176
A: Slavia Prague 171
E: Everton 171
K: Lazio 169
----
D: AC Milan 161
G: Hapoel Beer-Sheva 148
I: FC Salzburg 146
I: Marseille 145
B: Young Boys 123
A: Maccabi Tel-Aviv 122
H: Arsenal 115
C: Braga 108
J: Hertha Berlin 105
A: Astana 104
G: Steaua Bucharest 104
K: Nice 98
----
D: Austria Wien 93
K: Zulte Waregem 78
C: Ludogorets 72
H: BATE Borisov 72
E: Atalanta 70
I: Konyaspor 66
L: Rosenborg 62
K: Vitesse 54
H: FC Koln 52
B: Partizan Belgrade 51
C: Hoffenheim 51
J: Zorya 49
----
E. Apollon 47
D: AEK Athens 42
B: Astana 41
D: Rijeka 41
I: Vitória Guimarães 41
G: Lugano 39
F: Sheriff 38
F: Zlin 29
H: Red Star 15
L: Real Sociedad 15
J: Ostersund 0
L: Vardar 0
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bugylibicska
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Post by bugylibicska »

Group G:
Steaua Bucuresti 2.00
Hapoel Beer Sheva 3.00
Plzen 5.00
Lugano 11.00

Group H:
Arsenal 1.12
Koln 7.00
BATE, Crvena Zvezda 21.00

Group I:
Marseille 1.50
Salzburg 4.00
Guimaraes 9.00
Konyaspor 11.00
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Dragonite
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Post by Dragonite »

Expected results in Group G this week.

bossake wrote:Last year Steaua had 6 points from 6 games in the Group and now have 6 points from 2 games. Really impressive. It is first away win in groups for us (both CL+EL) from November 2012 when we win also 2-1 away at Molde.We missed an away win in Champions League groups in 2013 in Basel when they equalised us in 92min, so I was afraid today :). Also was first win for Steaua in Switzerland from 4 games.
It is the first time in the new format of groups (2009+) a romanian team starts with 2 wins in a row in the group stage.
But same like in the first win vs Plzen, we had the chance on our side. In the first half we made our poorest half from this season. Lugano when already leading 1-0 had a crossbar, a very big chance for making 2-0.
In the second half we started a solid play, actually we just played at our value against Lugano a team which sincerly is not very valuable but today played a lot with their heart, maybe that is why after min 75 they were somehow down physically.. We played very good not too much, only ~ 20 mins, but was enough to lead 2-1 and after we conserved the win, Lugano had in the whole second half only a chance at 1-1. But in the first half they simply ruled the game, we almost didnt created nothing.

I would had prefered another result at Plzen - Beer Sheva 3-1 (draw or win for Beer Sheva), so with this current table (Steaua 6, Plzen3, Beer Sheva 3) I still believe we have a lot to work to secure the qualifier. Beer Sheva - Steaua is scheduled for the next round and is crucial for us to dont lose that game.
Like bossake said yesterday in the “EL round 2 general thread”, Steaua already collected as many points in just two matches this season as in their entire EL campaign last season.

It’s also only the second time in 23 EL away matches that they won. Yet, unlike Celtic’s CL away win which was a huge surprise to me, this one wasn’t. Why? Because Lugano is awful, I don’t consider them good enough to compete with the other teams in this group.


In Group H, expected results too, at least to me…
Some people are shocked with FC Koln’s defeat… When I look at them, I can only see a weak team. I couldn’t care less about their neighbours, they aren’t here to help them. FC Koln is on its own. Their neighbours already helped them with an EL group stage direct spot, and I seriously doubt that FC Koln would have made it this far had they started in ELQR3 like for instance Freiburg did.
But let’s play that “neighbours” game for a while, shall we?
Two years ago, one of their neighbours, Augsburg, also lost an EL MD2 match at home against one of Red Star’s neighbours, Partizan. And despite having a 6 points disadvantage to the Serbian team at this point (FC Koln “only” has 4), they still recovered to finish top 2 and qualify.
So, if this “neighbours” thing matters, maybe it will happen again?


In Group I, expected win for FC Salzburg, and…
The only “unexpected” result in these three groups this week, to me at least, was Konyaspor winning against Vitória Guimarães! :sigh:

Steaua’s already collecting as many points in just two games this season as in its entire EL campaign last season is nothing compared to what Konyaspor did, they already tripled their score!! :bouncy:

Image

Vitória Guimarães is a disgrace.
Their motto is “we’re better than Braga”.
These “better than Braga” wannabe posers just lost to a team that had never won a single match in its history. They were in a winless streak of 7 EL matches, and now they’re not anymore because they found another worthless team like them, who is also in its own EL winless streak of 7 matches now (and with the potential to grow a lot more).
You think that results will make them rethink their false premises?
Of course they won’t! If results don’t support their delusional theories, they’ll just find idiotic excuses, like “results don’t matter, the only thing that matters is… attendances!!?!”

Vitória Guimarães and Konyaspor are a waste of two EL direct spots; better teams aren’t competing anymore so that these two parasites can be here now. Having them together in this group is a blessing for the other two teams, FC Salzburg and Marseille, it’s practically a direct qualification for the EL last 32 for these two.

I’d actually like if one of them made me eat my words, particularly at Marseille’s expense, but I just don’t see it happening.
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Post by OMfan »

Important Win from OM with most of the regulars on the bench.
OM and Red bull looks better than the 2 other teams.
They have to finish the works on the next matchday.

Shamefull attendance in Marseille for the second time in a row. 13000 tickets sold.
Waiting for the revenge against Red bull Salzburg in Marseille
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Post by Vickzq »

Dragonite wrote: Lugano, although much worse than any other team in this group, was the only one with direct qualification. This doesn’t make any sense!
UEFA is wasting several direct spots with unworthy teams like Lugano, while several good teams are killing themselves for months to get a few spots. ...
As if the big leagues in Europe wouldn't profit all the time for even castrating the former champions league into an incestous Top4 league... with occasional participation of few other leagues from the next season on... :evil:
The rules are the same for everybody, if a league is among Top12, they send their cup-winner (or if champ & cup-winner) their respective runner-up for that specific position in league to the EL.
The leagues from higher positions honestly do not need even more spots in EL now :roll:

I do not even need to mention now that... no matter what position they will take in the end... Lugano lost twice with a single goal difference, and won against Pilsen. Even when finishing possibly last ... I see no sign of the 'much worse than any other team in this group' - names aren't everything.
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Post by Overgame »

Dragonite, if he was a mathematician, would have been fired long ago. He likes to use the "proof by example" and doesn't care about reality. He can prove "all numbers are even ! See 2 and 4, they are even, so all numbers are even".

This sounds stupid ? Actually, he whines about the direct spots by using Lugano.

1) 16 teams got a direct spot in EL.
-Villareal has 5 points
-Real Sociedad has 6 points
-FC Koln has 0 point
-Hertha has 1 point
-Arsenal has 9 points
-Atalanta has 7 points
-Lazio has 9 points
-Vitoria has 1 point (but he will not use this example for obvious reason)
-Lyon has 5 points
-Lokomotiv has 5 points
-Zorya has 6 points
-Zulte has 1 point
-Vitesse has 1 point
-Konyaspor has 3 points
-Lugano has 3 points
-Zlin has 2 points

He also will not use group E as an example, 2 teams with direct spots are cruising against 2 teams who won their ELqR4. Or group K, where one direct spot and one CL dropout are dominating. These examples would kill his theory, so he "forgets" them. Confirmation bias at the top.
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Post by SimonB »

Overgame wrote:Dragonite, if he was a mathematician, would have been fired long ago. He likes to use the "proof by example" and doesn't care about reality. He can prove "all numbers are even ! See 2 and 4, they are even, so all numbers are even".

This sounds stupid ? Actually, he whines about the direct spots by using Lugano.

1) 16 teams got a direct spot in EL.
-Villareal has 5 points
-Real Sociedad has 6 points
-FC Koln has 0 point
-Hertha has 1 point
-Arsenal has 9 points
-Atalanta has 7 points
-Lazio has 9 points
-Vitoria has 1 point (but he will not use this example for obvious reason)
-Lyon has 5 points
-Lokomotiv has 5 points
-Zorya has 6 points
-Zulte has 1 point
-Vitesse has 1 point
-Konyaspor has 3 points
-Lugano has 3 points
-Zlin has 2 points

He also will not use group E as an example, 2 teams with direct spots are cruising against 2 teams who won their ELqR4. Or group K, where one direct spot and one CL dropout are dominating. These examples would kill his theory, so he "forgets" them. Confirmation bias at the top.
I just looked into this a bit further.

The above 16 teams between them have 64 points so far (avg. 4.00). The remaining 32 teams have 129 points between them (avg. 4.03).

So if this season is representative does it suggest that UEFA have just about judged things to perfection in their balancing of direct versus qualification spots in order to have a well balanced competition?
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Post by Lorric »

Overgame wrote:Dragonite, if he was a mathematician, would have been fired long ago. He likes to use the "proof by example" and doesn't care about reality. He can prove "all numbers are even ! See 2 and 4, they are even, so all numbers are even".

This sounds stupid ? Actually, he whines about the direct spots by using Lugano.

1) 16 teams got a direct spot in EL.
-Villareal has 5 points
-Real Sociedad has 6 points
-FC Koln has 0 point
-Hertha has 1 point
-Arsenal has 9 points
-Atalanta has 7 points
-Lazio has 9 points
-Vitoria has 1 point (but he will not use this example for obvious reason)
-Lyon has 5 points
-Lokomotiv has 5 points
-Zorya has 6 points
-Zulte has 1 point
-Vitesse has 1 point
-Konyaspor has 3 points
-Lugano has 3 points
-Zlin has 2 points

He also will not use group E as an example, 2 teams with direct spots are cruising against 2 teams who won their ELqR4. Or group K, where one direct spot and one CL dropout are dominating. These examples would kill his theory, so he "forgets" them. Confirmation bias at the top.
He said Vitoria are a waste of a direct spot at the bottom of his last post.
Last edited by Lorric on Thu Oct 26, 2017 13:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lorric »

SimonB wrote:
Overgame wrote:Dragonite, if he was a mathematician, would have been fired long ago. He likes to use the "proof by example" and doesn't care about reality. He can prove "all numbers are even ! See 2 and 4, they are even, so all numbers are even".

This sounds stupid ? Actually, he whines about the direct spots by using Lugano.

1) 16 teams got a direct spot in EL.
-Villareal has 5 points
-Real Sociedad has 6 points
-FC Koln has 0 point
-Hertha has 1 point
-Arsenal has 9 points
-Atalanta has 7 points
-Lazio has 9 points
-Vitoria has 1 point (but he will not use this example for obvious reason)
-Lyon has 5 points
-Lokomotiv has 5 points
-Zorya has 6 points
-Zulte has 1 point
-Vitesse has 1 point
-Konyaspor has 3 points
-Lugano has 3 points
-Zlin has 2 points

He also will not use group E as an example, 2 teams with direct spots are cruising against 2 teams who won their ELqR4. Or group K, where one direct spot and one CL dropout are dominating. These examples would kill his theory, so he "forgets" them. Confirmation bias at the top.
I just looked into this a bit further.

The above 16 teams between them have 64 points so far (avg. 4.00). The remaining 32 teams have 129 points between them (avg. 4.03).

So if this season is representative does it suggest that UEFA have just about judged things to perfection in their balancing of direct versus qualification spots in order to have a well balanced competition?
I would say no. The direct teams should be significantly superior to the have to qualify teams to justify their direct places.
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Post by Dragonite »

Vickzq wrote:
Dragonite wrote: Lugano, although much worse than any other team in this group, was the only one with direct qualification. This doesn’t make any sense!
UEFA is wasting several direct spots with unworthy teams like Lugano, while several good teams are killing themselves for months to get a few spots. ...
As if the big leagues in Europe wouldn't profit all the time for even castrating the former champions league into an incestous Top4 league... with occasional participation of few other leagues from the next season on... :evil:
The rules are the same for everybody, if a league is among Top12, they send their cup-winner (or if champ & cup-winner) their respective runner-up for that specific position in league to the EL.
The leagues from higher positions honestly do not need even more spots in EL now :roll:

I do not even need to mention now that... no matter what position they will take in the end... Lugano lost twice with a single goal difference, and won against Pilsen. Even when finishing possibly last ... I see no sign of the 'much worse than any other team in this group' - names aren't everything.
Dragonite wrote:Lugano, although much worse than any other team in this group, was the only one with direct qualification. This doesn’t make any sense!
UEFA is wasting several direct spots with unworthy teams like Lugano, while several good teams are killing themselves for months to get a few spots. It would be better to abolish all direct spots, if these teams are indeed worthy they’d prove it by surviving the qualifiers, like the others do, and if they’re not, they wouldn’t make it to the group stages where they’ll be out of their depth.
I will write my CL and EL MD3 comments this weekend.

Meanwhile,

Vickzq,
Next time you quote something, please quote THE ENTIRE paragraph.
A few words out of context can be misleading (the next post after yours is someone saying that I wouldn’t say the same for Vitória Guimarães). This is your fault. :upset:

It’s not your fault though that he proceeds with seedings based on future results. :roll:
Seedings are based on past results, not on future results.

And SimonB, even “cheating” (looking at future results instead of past results), like Lorric said, direct qualification teams having similar results to the others proves nothing. In order to “deserve” that privilege, they were supposed to have MUCH BETTER results, in the past (which made me and og2002gr call them “unworthy”), or even “cheating” and looking to the future.


og2002gr wrote: Lugano is another strange case. I liked the city when I visited Switzerland, but I don't think they deserve a direct place in Europa League.
But again Vickzq, I’m curious, what made you quote my post but not og2002gr’s? :?

Is it because he started by saying something nice about the city? I’m curious.

We both think that Lugano is unworthy and better teams were eliminated in the qualifiers so that teams like Lugano could benefit from direct qualification.
And many others here think the same; they just haven’t bothered to write it.

People who actually care about the 48 participants (+8 that will arrive later) and not only about a handful of them, will be disturbed by the fact that direct spots were wasted in the likes of Real Sociedad, FC Koln, Hertha Berlin, Atalanta, Vitória Guimarães, Lokomotiv Moscow, Zorya, Zulte Waregem, Vitesse, Konyaspor, Lugano and Zlin.

Only Villarreal, Arsenal, Lazio and Lyon were worthy of those spots, and probably they didn’t even need that privilege because they would have survived the qualifiers anyway. As for the other twelve… :roll:
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Post by SimonB »

Dragonite wrote:
Vickzq wrote:
Dragonite wrote: Lugano, although much worse than any other team in this group, was the only one with direct qualification. This doesn’t make any sense!
UEFA is wasting several direct spots with unworthy teams like Lugano, while several good teams are killing themselves for months to get a few spots. ...
As if the big leagues in Europe wouldn't profit all the time for even castrating the former champions league into an incestous Top4 league... with occasional participation of few other leagues from the next season on... :evil:
The rules are the same for everybody, if a league is among Top12, they send their cup-winner (or if champ & cup-winner) their respective runner-up for that specific position in league to the EL.
The leagues from higher positions honestly do not need even more spots in EL now :roll:

I do not even need to mention now that... no matter what position they will take in the end... Lugano lost twice with a single goal difference, and won against Pilsen. Even when finishing possibly last ... I see no sign of the 'much worse than any other team in this group' - names aren't everything.
Dragonite wrote:Lugano, although much worse than any other team in this group, was the only one with direct qualification. This doesn’t make any sense!
UEFA is wasting several direct spots with unworthy teams like Lugano, while several good teams are killing themselves for months to get a few spots. It would be better to abolish all direct spots, if these teams are indeed worthy they’d prove it by surviving the qualifiers, like the others do, and if they’re not, they wouldn’t make it to the group stages where they’ll be out of their depth.
I will write my CL and EL MD3 comments this weekend.

Meanwhile,

Vickzq,
Next time you quote something, please quote THE ENTIRE paragraph.
A few words out of context can be misleading (the next post after yours is someone saying that I wouldn’t say the same for Vitória Guimarães). This is your fault. :upset:

It’s not your fault though that he proceeds with seedings based on future results. :roll:
Seedings are based on past results, not on future results.

And SimonB, even “cheating” (looking at future results instead of past results), like Lorric said, direct qualification teams having similar results to the others proves nothing. In order to “deserve” that privilege, they were supposed to have MUCH BETTER results, in the past (which made me and og2002gr call them “unworthy”), or even “cheating” and looking to the future.


og2002gr wrote: Lugano is another strange case. I liked the city when I visited Switzerland, but I don't think they deserve a direct place in Europa League.
But again Vickzq, I’m curious, what made you quote my post but not og2002gr’s? :?

Is it because he started by saying something nice about the city? I’m curious.

We both think that Lugano is unworthy and better teams were eliminated in the qualifiers so that teams like Lugano could benefit from direct qualification.
And many others here think the same; they just haven’t bothered to write it.

People who actually care about the 48 participants (+8 that will arrive later) and not only about a handful of them, will be disturbed by the fact that direct spots were wasted in the likes of Real Sociedad, FC Koln, Hertha Berlin, Atalanta, Vitória Guimarães, Lokomotiv Moscow, Zorya, Zulte Waregem, Vitesse, Konyaspor, Lugano and Zlin.

Only Villarreal, Arsenal, Lazio and Lyon were worthy of those spots, and probably they didn’t even need that privilege because they would have survived the qualifiers anyway. As for the other twelve… :roll:
I was simply completing and adding to something started by overgame to see how things were going overall this season to date, not attempting to "cheat" in any way. I did add the caveat of "if this season is representative" because I knew that I was only looking at this season to date.

I prefer a more pragmatic approach than one constrained by ideals and philosophies such as "CL should be for champions only" or "all teams should have to qualify".

There is nothing wrong with "all teams should have to qualify", but what do you think would happen to revenues if main bidders from Germany, England, Italy etc. did not know in advance whether they would be showing 0,1,2 or 3 of their teams.

There is also nothing wrong either with "CL should be for champions only", and we can all sit back and enjoy the Slovenian champions Maribor, who just lost 0-7, against maybe Crvena Zvezda who couldn't score a goal against a back four consisting of a midfielder, a sick note who had played once in about 18 months, and 2 academy players. All of this of course while wondering if Atletico and Liverpool starting in July can make their way to the EL group stage without an accident.
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Post by Vickzq »

Dragonite wrote: Vickzq,
Next time you quote something, please quote THE ENTIRE paragraph.
A few words out of context can be misleading (the next post after yours is someone saying that I wouldn’t say the same for Vitória Guimarães). This is your fault. :upset:
No. I am responsible for what I say... others are responsible for what they say. It doesn't change the meaning at all.
The question is still this: How on planet earth can someone argue direct spots for leagues ranked from #7 to #12 when UEFA turns the whole CL into an incest-contest?
og2002gr wrote: Lugano is another strange case. I liked the city when I visited Switzerland, but I don't think they deserve a direct place in Europa League.
I can do you the favor: As far as I remember... the league ranking is what decides who gets a direct spot... not if someone likes the place or not. I don't like you saying that about Zlin or Vitoria either.
It is self-regulatory (up to some extent): A league needs a certain position to have a direct access to EL, and if their teams don't perform... the lower ranked leagues in that zone will immediately drop out of that favorable circle.
Duels of 'sooo strong' teams in qualification are eliminated by the points deciding the ranking and seeding... if a stronger team didn't make it... they stumbled over an outsider, and therefore the argument that they would have deserved it more to get direct access... remains a matter of relativity.

If someone wants to abolish EVERY DIRECT SPOT, for CL & EL, I would second that - if the respective number of starters for the countries involved stays reasonable. But that will never happen... the 'biggies' are too greedy :roll:
SimonB wrote: ...
There is also nothing wrong either with "CL should be for champions only", and we can all sit back and enjoy the Slovenian champions Maribor, who just lost 0-7, against maybe Crvena Zvezda who couldn't score a goal against a back four consisting of a midfielder, a sick note who had played once in about 18 months, and 2 academy players. All of this of course while wondering if Atletico and Liverpool starting in July can make their way to the EL group stage without an accident.
If the champions league was 'champions only'... the whole development would take a different direction. If CL would manage to generate similar amounts of money, they would also then go to ALL of these teams... and not only the british, etc. getting millions and millions automatically each year. Maribor would, too - and that would certainly lead to a different situation than the one we have now.
A CL for 'champions only' over the recent years could be compared to the situation in men's national football - a lot of competition on a high level by many champions. The situation we have now is rather like in women's football... very few teams profiting from best conditions, while most national teams do only get the essential - and then everybody is wondering how teams like USA can dominate a world of 90% amateurish teams.
Last edited by Vickzq on Thu Oct 26, 2017 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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