Italian season 2015/16

[matt]

Also, for respect of tazmania opening this thread to discuss Serie A, and matt keeping it updated, a quick recap on topic:

- Juventus champion
- Napoli and AS Roma likely in CL GS and CL QR4, after 35 matches Napoli is 2nd but with only 2p over AS Roma, the battle still open
- AC Milan is 6th (EL QR3), Sassuolo is 1p behind, but AC Milan still has to play the national cup final: in case of victory it will gain EL GS access
- FC Inter and Fiorentina are likely to finish 4th and 5th, which are the EL QR spots
- Verona relegated, the other two relegated clubs are likely giong to be chosen between Frosinone, Palermo and Carpi

sorry guys for the OT

- Napoli (Torino, Empoli) is still 2 pts over Roma (Chievo, Milan), but the H2H would give the giallorossi the CL GS spot, in case of a tie.
- Inter (Empoli, Sassuolo) 64 pts vs Fiorentina (Palermo, Lazio) 60 pts. We need a win or a Viola's loss (a draw would not be enough because of H2H pro-Fiorentina) to secure the 4th place and its EL GS spot. The 5th-placed team will get the EL spot, GS or Q3 depending on the Cup Final result.
- Milan can achieve the EL GS spot via the above-mentioned final vs Juventus. Should they lose it, the 6th-placed team would get the EL Q3 spot: Sassuolo (Frosinone, Inter) is 1 pt over Milan (Bologna, Roma), in case of a tie H2H would leave the rossoneri out of Europe.
- The relegation battle is kinda more complex. Well, it should not look so, but the SKY commentator said something that messed my head. Udinese 38 (ATA, CAR), Carpi 35 (LAZ, UDI), Palermo 35 (FIO, VER), Frosinone 31 (SAS, NAP). That said, when the 3-3 MIL-FRO goal was scored, he said the Palermo's fans were wrong in celebrating it 'cause a Frosinone's win was a better result for them . I'm wondering about more-than-2-teams H2Hs but I can't get the point. Can someone explain this? Perhaps Arges and/or Matt heard that too, I just lost something maybe.

Maybe because with the Milan goal Fiorentina is still not matematically sure of their European place? Next week there's Fiorentina - Palermo...I can't find other explainations.

[nemesys]

I'm wondering about more-than-2-teams H2Hs but I can't get the point. Can someone explain this?

Not rally following the Serie A this year, however, for the sake of a math enigma, I try.
** Probably ** with Frosinone at 33, there were a scenario in which all four sides would end up at 39 points, and ** maybe ** in this scenario would be favorable to Palermo? Assuming that Palermo is below Carpi in H2H, and assuming that if Palermo finished above Carpi in most scenarios it would finish above Frosinone anyways (no matter Frosinone having 2 more points with a victory in San Siro), then this could ** perhaps ** explain it. But I think that maybe SKY guy is probably wrong, I would not be surprised. I'm surprised by Udinese kind of struggling, I have an image of Pozzo club being really solid and coherent, able to be safe each year relatevely easily, I wonder what happened this season.

[Lorric]

The great Luca Toni is retiring.

http://www.espnfc.com/hellas-verona/sto ... las-verona

I would have thought he'd still have more to give. Maybe he doesn't want to tarnish his name, and such a comedown from winning the boot and being seen as one of the greats must be really hard to take. Players have bad seasons, look at Hazard at Chelsea from player of the year to a nobody. I'd be shocked if he didn't bounce back, and I can't imagine a great player like Toni would regress from golden boot to this season so quickly. Especially with issues with the coach. Chelsea's entire team went from champs to chumps. I think he may have made the decision too hastily. When he won the boot I was thinking here was a player who might be able to stay in the game as long as Maldini if not longer.

[bugylibicska]

Milan desperately trying to avoid playing in the EL, or are they really so crap?

Should they remain outside the top six and fail to win the Coppa Italia final against Juventus, the seven-time European champions will be without continental football for the third season in a row.

The Curva Sud fan group are incensed, however, that the club has arranged a pre-season friendly with Bayern Munich in July, at a time when they could potentially be involved in Europa League qualifying matches.

Following what they consider to be a commitment to avoid finishing sixth - thereby allowing for the potentially lucrative friendly match - they have demanded the departure of CEO Galliani, or for a satisfactory conclusion to president Silvio Berlusconi's protracted efforts to sell the club.

"Wednesday July 27, Soldier Field Chicago, Bayern Munich-Milan," the ultras' statement begins. "A normal friendly, a game like so many played over the summer, with a lot of tickets already on sale.

"But then, looking at the calendar for the Europa League, coming sixth in the Italian League - the place that we are 'chasing' - would mean being involved in a preliminary round on that very date.

"Is this a gross error on the part of a club in disarray? Or can we assume the club has already decided to lose sixth, to go on tour in the USA?

"It seems clear to us that the second option is widely supported by the ridiculous results against teams lower than us in both squad and prestige.

http://ca.soccerway.com/news/2016/May/0 ... s/n776738/

[bugylibicska]

The great Luca Toni is retiring.

http://www.espnfc.com/hellas-verona/sto ... las-verona

I would have thought he'd still have more to give. Maybe he doesn't want to tarnish his name, and such a comedown from winning the boot and being seen as one of the greats must be really hard to take. Players have bad seasons, look at Hazard at Chelsea from player of the year to a nobody. I'd be shocked if he didn't bounce back, and I can't imagine a great player like Toni would regress from golden boot to this season so quickly. Especially with issues with the coach. Chelsea's entire team went from champs to chumps. I think he may have made the decision too hastily. When he won the boot I was thinking here was a player who might be able to stay in the game as long as Maldini if not longer.

Well, Luca Toni is 39 this month. Maldini retired at 40 I think.

[Arges Pitesti]

Milan desperately trying to avoid playing in the EL, or are they really so crap?

Should they remain outside the top six and fail to win the Coppa Italia final against Juventus, the seven-time European champions will be without continental football for the third season in a row.

The Curva Sud fan group are incensed, however, that the club has arranged a pre-season friendly with Bayern Munich in July, at a time when they could potentially be involved in Europa League qualifying matches.

Following what they consider to be a commitment to avoid finishing sixth - thereby allowing for the potentially lucrative friendly match - they have demanded the departure of CEO Galliani, or for a satisfactory conclusion to president Silvio Berlusconi's protracted efforts to sell the club.

"Wednesday July 27, Soldier Field Chicago, Bayern Munich-Milan," the ultras' statement begins. "A normal friendly, a game like so many played over the summer, with a lot of tickets already on sale.

"But then, looking at the calendar for the Europa League, coming sixth in the Italian League - the place that we are 'chasing' - would mean being involved in a preliminary round on that very date.

"Is this a gross error on the part of a club in disarray? Or can we assume the club has already decided to lose sixth, to go on tour in the USA?

"It seems clear to us that the second option is widely supported by the ridiculous results against teams lower than us in both squad and prestige.

http://ca.soccerway.com/news/2016/May/0 ... s/n776738/

If a summer friendly in USA is considered more important than Europa League, this means the death of football as a sport.

About Toni, one of 2006 WC heroes:

[max tre]

I'm wondering about more-than-2-teams H2Hs but I can't get the point. Can someone explain this?

Not rally following the Serie A this year, however, for the sake of a math enigma, I try.
** Probably ** with Frosinone at 33, there were a scenario in which all four sides would end up at 39 points, and ** maybe ** in this scenario would be favorable to Palermo? Assuming that Palermo is below Carpi in H2H, and assuming that if Palermo finished above Carpi in most scenarios it would finish above Frosinone anyways (no matter Frosinone having 2 more points with a victory in San Siro), then this could ** perhaps ** explain it. But I think that maybe SKY guy is probably wrong, I would not be surprised. I'm surprised by Udinese kind of struggling, I have an image of Pozzo club being really solid and coherent, able to be safe each year relatevely easily, I wonder what happened this season.

Thanks for the try. Me too, I'm getting more and more convinced he was simply wrong, at least in the way he said that.
"For the sake of a math enigma" , that's what I computed.

The first thing I thought was "mmh maybe Palermo has worse tie-breakers than Carpi (and he has: tied on H2H, worse overall GD), but if Frosinone reaches them on points, then he has better tie-breakers than both Carpi and Frosinone", but it's not the case:

Code: Select all

CAR-PAL 2-2 1-1
CAR-FRO 2-1 1-2
PAL-FRO 2-2 1-1

CAR 5 (better overall GD than FRO)
FRO 5
PAL 4

As you suggested, we could then try checking out "what if Udinese too...?". First thing, note that there's a UDI-CAR on the matchday #38. That said, if we wanted a 4-teams-tied scenario, we could have had only with 4 teams tied on 39 points (I'm giving FRO the 3 Milan-win points here) and UDI-CAR could not be a home-team-win.

Code: Select all

UDI-CAR 2-1 X-Y where X <= Y
UDI-PAL 0-1 1-4
UDI-FRO 1-0 0-2

PAL 10
FRO 8
CAR 6 or 8
UDI 6 or 7

These scenarios would both result in Palermo staying in Serie A. Now, let's see what happen if FRO is not tied on points (because of Milan's 3-3 goal).

Code: Select all

PAL 8
CAR 3 or 4
UDI 3 or 4

Id est, Palermo is safe anyway in both the scenarios.

Still, I could be wrong anywhere, please correct me if that's the case.

[nemesys]

Milan desperately trying to avoid playing in the EL, or are they really so crap?

If a summer friendly in USA is considered more important than Europa League, this means the death of football as a sport.

Honestly, are you guys really surprised? Long term wise, the risk is to destroy the magic and the charm for everybody. Problem is, the head-quarters of several top sides in Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga Premiership, ... have a different vision about what European professional football should be about, and what it is enjoyable in football. They likely think (and even stated it claerly in several occasions) that friendlies or GS matches without true risks of elimination between such top sides, repeated over and over year after year, will be, and this long term, more appealing to fans (hence better marketing wise) than KOs between a top side and a less known underdog in a Uefa KO competition, and that foot is a TV product, rather than an event people want in a stadium in their city. For instance, I would not be surprised if, in a short term from today, CL will became a close Super League (officially or unofficially) of like 32 selected clubs playing unterminable round robin seasons, plus a final: there are plans for, more or less, this setup already. They likely also misunderstood the US sports model, where college sport system, not present in Europe, is an important factor in the equation to make it work.

[nemesys]

I'm getting more and more convinced he was simply wrong, at least in the way he said that.
cut...
Still, I could be wrong anywhere, please correct me if that's the case.

One of the two: the first one is more likely to be true on my books!

[bugylibicska]

If a summer friendly in USA is considered more important than Europa League, this means the death of football as a sport.

Honestly, are you guys really surprised? Long term wise, the risk is to destroy the magic and the charm for everybody. Problem is, the head-quarters of several top sides in Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga Premiership, ... have a different vision about what European professional football should be about, and what it is enjoyable in football. They likely think (and even stated it claerly in several occasions) that friendlies or GS matches without true risks of elimination between such top sides, repeated over and over year after year, will be, and this long term, more appealing to fans (hence better marketing wise) than KOs between a top side and a less known underdog in a Uefa KO competition, and that foot is a TV product, rather than an event people want in a stadium in their city. For instance, I would not be surprised if, in a short term from today, CL will became a close Super League (officially or unofficially) of like 32 selected clubs playing unterminable round robin seasons, plus a final: there are plans for, more or less, this setup already. They likely also misunderstood the US sports model, where college sport system, not present in Europe, is an important factor in the equation to make it work.

I`m disappointed. Surprised? No, but not comfortable risking of being called a conspiracy theorist.

[nemesys]

I`m disappointed. Surprised? No, but not comfortable risking of being called a conspiracy theorist.

Claim that there is a conspiracy without any evidence is one thing, disagree with something openly stated in several occasions, it is another.

[bugylibicska]

I`m disappointed. Surprised? No, but not comfortable risking of being called a conspiracy theorist.

Claim that there is a conspiracy without any evidence is one thing, disagree with something openly stated in several occasions, it is another.

Well, I`d absolutely no evidence when I wrote that sentence, just looked very suspicious.

[nemesys]

My point is: there is not a conspiracy. CL is Uefa toy, Uefa can do whatever with it. Even a Super League.

Then someone is entitled to say: I like the choices Uefa makes, or I don't. I, personally, don't. Hence I follow the part of the competition which I like, and snob the rest of it. No need to complain: don't like this = don't watch this. This is what I like (KOs of 180' with a winner and an eliminated) = I watch.

I try to make my life easy, and happy. And football is not important to me to the point that I cannot avoid watching games I don't care about.

[nemesys]

@bugylibicska

Quick last note: I really hope no hard feelings!

I like your posts, and I appreciate reading your opinions.
If I diagree on a matter, it does not mean that we must be rivals. We are talking football, after all.
I personally don't like to complain, I like to have a say on things, and I adapt to things in the way (I think) is best for me. This is my attitude.
This definitely does not mean that other opinions or mentalities are not appreciated. You learn mostly from people thinking differently from you!

[bugylibicska]

@bugylibicska

Quick last note: I really hope no hard feelings!

I like your posts, and I appreciate reading your opinions.
If I diagree on a matter, it does not mean that we must be rivals. We are talking football, after all.
I personally don't like to complain, I like to have a say on things, and I adapt to things in the way (I think) is best for me. This is my attitude.
This definitely does not mean that other opinions or mentalities are not appreciated. You learn mostly from people thinking differently from you!

Not of course.