Draw System for League Phases of European Cups 2024 onwards

[eye]

Most likely the draw will be done by computer the same way FEPG's simulator is working. Maybe they will only draw one opponent manually and most likely an opponent from the same pot the club is. Obviously most of us don't like the idea and there will always be some theories about preset outcome especially from the fans of clubs that had a tough draw.
The alternative is to have a manual draw using the logic my simulator is working. The way my simulator is working it will be required too much time to prepare the bowls so most likely it is not a solution but using this logic they may do the draw. For each of potX vs potY draw (where x,y are 1-4) they will draw the club from potY. This club will be opponent of the first in order of potX clubs (the order will be determined by the coeffecients) that may be drawn.
Example let's say we are drawing pot1 vs pot2 matches. The order of pot1 clubs is Real, City, Bayern, PSG,...,Barcelona. For each of these 9 clubs there will be a list of their possible opponents from pot2 on screen based on draw restrictions and based on the pairs that were already drawn. The 1st drawn club will face Real unless it is not in the list of Real's possible opponents. This happens when the drawn club is also Spanish or if this club has already been drawn against 2 other Spanish clubs or Real has been drawn against 2 opponents from the club's country, or Real has already been drawn to play against this club away at pot2 vs pot1 draw or when this pair causes deadlock situation to the remaining pairs. In such case the drawn club will face City if it is possible, if not Bayern etc but there is always at least one availiable opponent which computer knows it since like in my simulator all possible draw scenarios for the pot1 vs pot2 draw are known.
So in the end by drawning 144 balls we can have all the fixtures. I don't think it takes more than 10-20 secs to draw a ball so the required time will be something like 20-40 mins.
The schedule is a different story and surely will require computer's help but this is what was done already till today. The schedule was realised 1-2 days after the draw.

[Sagy]

Yes, the key is to reduce the complexity. One way to reduce the complexity for “plan A” is to come up with a schedule that already takes into account some of the key restrictions. This will mean that ahead of the draw we know that English, Spanish, Italian, German, and French teams are limited to certain spots. For example the three German teams in Pot A might be limited to only 3 or 4 spots out of the 9, the Two English and Spanish teams for 2 or 3 other spots.

[elkjiaer is back]

Drawing paires is very time consuming . We should remember how the draw worked with the old stystem : a team was drawn , then possibile groups were checked , and the team was allocated to the first possible one . Here instead of groups you can easily have a pre-determined match calendar ( fulfilling all constrains about home/away etc ) just like the example I posted a few weeks ago here . Then instead of allocating a team to a group you allocate a team to a fixture position , say 1 to 36 . And the computer must check which positions are possible
For the team on order to avoid dead ends . It is not so difficult to write a code like that

[diyx]

I still believe that they will have a schedule of all the games with place holders (e.g. A1-C7 = first team from pot A hosting 7th team from Pot C) and draw the 36 balls one after the other starting with Pot A. The role that the computer will play is to alert with a team that in drawn in position x has to be placed in position y for its Pot to avoid an immediate issue or a deadlock.

Well, I have some concern about it.
It depends on the complexity of the algorithm to be used.

What you are suggesting would be the perfct solution, the "real draw", and requires the computer is alerting in advance that a certain move will cause a deadlocks some steps ahead.
This requires the most complex algorithm, the one which explores completely all the paths of the combinations tree to say if that step in the tree has still valid paths.
Many of us suggest this is too complex, there are a lot of possible paths to explore (I am not able to estimate the order of the number) and it requires too much time, memory and so it could be very hard to implement.

The Plan B could be some euristhic method which predetermines one or more possible fixtures.
Of course in this case it would not be a "real draw".

EDIT:
Just now I am thinking there could be a way in the middle, a plan C - thanks to Francisco post

Let us suppose Plan A is impossible because the possible combinations are something like 10^10 or 10^20, and so it is not possible to run live the algorithm during the draw.

0. The euristhic can predetermine an high number of fixtures, let me say 1,000 or 10,000 or as much as possible (PFS = predetermined fixtures set).

1. The first team X is selected.
2. Then you see which are the possible opponents Y1, ..., Yn in the fixtures in the PFS.
3. You draw Yk the first opponent of X only between Y1, ..., Yn.
4. Then you discard from the PFS all the fixtures where X and Yk does not match.
5. Go back to step 1. or 2. and go forward
until there is only one remaining fixture in the PFS.

When there is only one remaining fixtures in the PFS, you can complete the fixture.

You may be right that exploring all paths during the draw is too complex. Still, I believe there is a way to conduct a draw with a predetermined schedule. It goes as follows:

In the days before the draw, a computer calculates as many valid outcomes as possible. Let's say it can calculate 10^10 matchups or so. During the draw, it only checks if there is a valid solution to put a certain club at one specific position.
One example:
Real Madrid is drawn A1. Everything OK so far.
Bayern is drawn as A2. Still OK.
Dortmund is drawn as A3. Now the computer cannot find a single valid combination where Real is A1, Bayern is A2 and Dortmund is A3. Therefore, it is assigned to A4 instead.

After two pots, probably not many valid match plans remain, perhaps only one. This is not a big problem, though. In order to have a more exciting draw, they can now stop following the remaining matchplans and start calculating the possible drawing positions in real time, since the complexity is so much reduced that it should be able to compute the whole path within milliseconds.

[Matt7r]

So UEFA have announced the draw procedure. Clubs will be drawn one by one with top seeds, ie pot 1, first (and then moving down the pots - obviously by the time you get to pot 4 each side will already know 6 (or more) of their eight opponents, for CL and EL). For pot 1 teams once a ball is drawn, the computer will then allocate 4 home opponents and 4 away opponents in some kind of random fashion but to ensure certain conditions are met (no country clashes, max 2 opponents from one country and no deadlocks resulting from these pairings). Fixture schedule will then published on Saturday 31 August.

https://www.uefa.com/news-media/news/02 ... ue-phase-/

[Diouf]

So they went for what is probably the most television friendly version. A team is drawn and then immediatedly afterwards learn all their match-ups. But then also the least transparent versions as it's actually not really a draw, as it doesn't make a difference in what order the teams are drawn. The computer decides everything

[elkjiaer is back]

I actually wonder if restrictions related to fixtures (home/away in first 2 and last 2 matches ) , no more than 2 consecutive home /away matches , plus a few others , make compiling the match day calendar always possibile given the set of 144 matches . Or if the computer needs to rake those variables into account as well when picking up randomly opponents for each team . Any idea ?

[SteffenM]

One thing here haven't been mentioned.
The climate.

WIth more games in CL and EL, it's new with UEFA matches in January. Many countries are on winther break.
Will it be taken into account for cold climate countries. In the old days i recall cold countries couldn't play at home at last match day. (correct?) Willl Bodø-Glimt also have to play home maybe in snow in January?

As others have mentioned, I believe the computer will do all the calculating at once. And the draw will only be for TV reasons. If the computer should do one draw at a time, the risk of deadlock will be to high.

[eye]

One thing here haven't been mentioned.
The climate.

WIth more games in CL and EL, it's new with UEFA matches in January. Many countries are on winther break.
Will it be taken into account for cold climate countries. In the old days i recall cold countries couldn't play at home at last match day. (correct?) Willl Bodø-Glimt also have to play home maybe in snow in January?

As others have mentioned, I believe the computer will do all the calculating at once. And the draw will only be for TV reasons. If the computer should do one draw at a time, the risk of deadlock will be to high.

Yes there will be matches at northern countries in January since all clubs should play one match at home and one match away at the last 2 matchdays.
The worse is that at last matchday all matches should start at same time and it is very possible some matches to be postponed.

I think it would have been better if UEFA had moved few matches of NTs from autumn to January and use these weeks for club competitions. They could have avoided easier NTs matches at northern countries at winter and also since many countries are at winter break NTs would have more time to be better prepared.

[TommyChat]

One thing here haven't been mentioned.
The climate.

WIth more games in CL and EL, it's new with UEFA matches in January. Many countries are on winther break.
Will it be taken into account for cold climate countries. In the old days i recall cold countries couldn't play at home at last match day. (correct?) Willl Bodø-Glimt also have to play home maybe in snow in January?

As others have mentioned, I believe the computer will do all the calculating at once. And the draw will only be for TV reasons. If the computer should do one draw at a time, the risk of deadlock will be to high.

Yes there will be matches at northern countries in January since all clubs should play one match at home and one match away at the last 2 matchdays.
The worse is that at last matchday all matches should start at same time and it is very possible some matches to be postponed.

I think it would have been better if UEFA had moved few matches of NTs from autumn to January and use these weeks for club competitions. They could have avoided easier NTs matches at northern countries at winter and also since many countries are at winter break NTs would have more time to be better prepared.

Players of European clubs play in NTs all over the world. And there are players of European NTs playing in leagues outside UEFA. There was a game in MD 5 of ECL in December in Iceland last season and it was played at noon.

[eye]

One thing here haven't been mentioned.
The climate.

WIth more games in CL and EL, it's new with UEFA matches in January. Many countries are on winther break.
Will it be taken into account for cold climate countries. In the old days i recall cold countries couldn't play at home at last match day. (correct?) Willl Bodø-Glimt also have to play home maybe in snow in January?

As others have mentioned, I believe the computer will do all the calculating at once. And the draw will only be for TV reasons. If the computer should do one draw at a time, the risk of deadlock will be to high.

Yes there will be matches at northern countries in January since all clubs should play one match at home and one match away at the last 2 matchdays.
The worse is that at last matchday all matches should start at same time and it is very possible some matches to be postponed.

I think it would have been better if UEFA had moved few matches of NTs from autumn to January and use these weeks for club competitions. They could have avoided easier NTs matches at northern countries at winter and also since many countries are at winter break NTs would have more time to be better prepared.

Players of European clubs play in NTs all over the world. And there are players of European NTs playing in leagues outside UEFA. There was a game in MD 5 of ECL in December in Iceland last season and it was played at noon.

Of course such change should done in cooperation with FIFA. I believe FIFA wouldn't mind though. Generally the extreme weather conditions in Earth are mainly at winter and summer depending the place you are. Having NTs match that period is only good because you have the flexibility to schedule matches at countries that conditions are not too bad plus NTs might have more time to be prepared instead of gathering 3-4 days in autumn and spring before a match.
As for the match in Iceland it was not at last matchday and even if it was the other match of group would have started at same time so this situation would affect only one match. With the new system 17 matches would be affected since there aren't groups anymore. Even if UEFA avoids matches at northern countries at last matchday the northern clubs should play at home the matches of matchday 7 of CL and EL a week earlier and there is high probability matches to be postponed without having enough time to reschedule them.

[SteffenM]

And a probality to destroy the pitch for the spring season.
This is a very bad decision by UEFA.

You say FIFA won't mind.
Remeber this has become a problem because both FIFA and UEFA are trying to "invent" more matches to put into the calendar. The European leagues and the players Union have sued FIFA for this (club world cup), but guess UEFA isn't much better. And not sure FIFA and UEFA feel like helping each other to place more matches.

One said to me today Real Madrid are planning on playing 72 games this season. This is madness.
Also not sure how CL/EL clubs in England will put all this matches into the calender, if they also do well in the national cups.

[eye]

There are plenty other more important problems caused by matches in January. There is a tranfer window at January so some players have contracts till end of year in order to join new club at that transfer window so probably some clubs will loose some players. At the northern countries clubs are preparing for next season which is starting in spring so for them it is similar situation like forcing clubs of southern countries to play 2 important matches at mid-end June.

The number of matches each club will play is only increased by 2 for clubs of CL-LP and EL-LP and this is not a so big problem for the leagues even for EPL. Actually clubs were playing more matches when there were 2 groups stages at CL. The main problem for me is the period these matches are played. If all 8 matches were played till December as it used to be it would have been ok but UEFA prefered to have an exclusive week for each competition in order to get more money from TV channels without caring at all about the weather conditions, the higher risk of injuries for players, the rest of the players and the proper preparation of the clubs from northern counrties.

[Shing]

Also AFCON and Asian Cup sometimes are held in December/January

[Tazmania]

The 2025 Afcon will run during the Christmas and New Year holiday 2025-2026 in order to avoid clashing with the European club competition dates.