Talents from you country/or in your league

[Alan96]

I hope the thread is interest. I have make a list with many german young talent players, I would nice to see, if someone post the talents from his country, or added some to my list. I will post also talents from other countries, which play in the Bundesliga.

The 5 Stars behind some names, indicate the player have enourmous potential and can be develop to a world class player, of course (not to all) the others can do it, too. Also a 5 Star-Players, can fall down after an injury for example.

Goalkeepers
Manuel Neuer (Schalke (1986) *****
Ralf Fährmann (Schalke) (1988)
Tobias Sippel (Kaiserslautern) (1988)
Kevin Trapp (Kaiserslautern) (1990)
Florian Fromlowitz (Hannover) (1986)
Sven Ulreich (Stuttgart) (1988)
Ron-Robert Zieler (Manchester United Reserves) (1989)
Emilio Fioranelli (Kaiserslautern) (1991)
Björn Bussmann (Blackburn Rovers) (1991)

Defenders
Kevin Pezzoni (Köln) (1989)
Matthias Jaissle (Hoffenheim) (1988)
Andreas Beck (Hoffenheim) (1987) *****
Gonzalo Castro (Leverkusen) (1987) *****
Mats Hummels (Dortmund) (1988) (loan from Bayern) *****
Marcel Schmelzer (Dortmund) (1988)
Holger Badstuber (Bayern II) (1989)
Benedikt Höwedes (Schalke) (1988) *****
Jerome Boateng (Hamburg) (1988) *****
Dennis Aogo (Hamburg) (1987)
Konstantin Rausch (Hannover) (1990)
Shervin Radjabali-Fardi (Hertha) (1991)
Stefano Celozzi (Karlsruhe) (1988)
Sebastian Boenisch (Bremen) (1987)
Christian Träsch (Stuttgart) (1987)
Serdar Tasci (Stuttgart) (1987)
Daniel Reiche (Wolfsburg) (1989)
Marvin Karow (Wolfsburg) (1989)
Bastian Oczipka (Rostock) (1989) (loan from Leverkusen)
Kevin Schindler (Rostock) (1988) (loan from Bremen)
Ömer Toprak (Freiburg) (1989)
Daniel Schwaab (Freiburg) (1988)
David Vrzogic (Dortmund II) (1989)
Christopher Schorch (Real Madrid B) (1989) *****
Christopher Buchtmann (Liverpool Academy) (1992)
Faton Toski (Frankfurt) (1987)
Jan Kirchhoff (Mainz) (1990)

Midfielders
Marcel Risse (Leverkusen) (1989)
Taner Yalcin (Köln) (1990)
Marco Terrazino (Hoffenheim) (1991)
Jonas Strifler (Hoffenheim) (1990)
Lars Bender (1860 München) (1989) *****
Sven Bender (1860 München) (1989) *****
Timo Gebhardt (1860 München) (1989)
Marko Marin (Mönchengladbach) (1989) *****
Alexander Baumjohann (Mönchengladbach) (1987)
Toni Kroos (Bayern) (1990) *****
Thomas Müller (Bayern) (1989)
Mehmet Ekici (Bayern II) (1990)
Änis Ben-Hatira (Hamburg) (1988)
Lennart Hartmann (Hertha) (1991)
Sascha Bigalke (Hertha) (1990)
Patrick Ebert (Hertha) (1987)
Dennis Diekmeier (Bremen II) (1989)
Mesut Özil (Bremen) (1988) *****
Aaron Hunt (Bremen) (1986)
Sebastian Rudy (Stuttgart (1990)
Sami Khedira (Stuttgart) (1987)
Patrick Funk (Stuttgart II) (1990)
Daniel Divadi (Stuttgart II) (1990)
Kevin Wolze (Wolfsburg II) (1990) *****
Daniel Adlung (Wolfsburg) (1987)
Ashkan Dejagah (Wolfsburg) (1986) *****
Tolgay-Ali Arslan (Dortmund U19) (1990)
Kevin Großkreutz (Ahlen) (1988)
Mario Vrancic (Mainz) (1989)
Chinedu Ede (Duisburg) (1987)
Felix Kroos (Rostock II) (1991)
Danny Latza (Schalke II) (1989)
Deniz Naki (Leverkusen II) (1989) *****
Kevin-Prince Boateng (Totteham Hotspur) (1987) *****
Baris Özbek (Galatasaray Istanbul)
Dennis Krol (FC Barcelona U19) (1991)

Strikers
Richard Sukuta-Pasu (Leverkusen) (1990) *****
Juvhel Tsoumou (Frankfurt) (1990)
Eric-Maxim Choupo-Mating (Hamburg) (1989)
Manuel Fischer (Stuttgart) (1989)
Lewis Holtby (Aachen) (1990)
Patrick Herrmann (Mönchengladbach U19) (1991)
Rouwen Hennings (St. Pauli) (1987)
Sami Allagui (Greuther Fürth) (1986)
Sandro Wagner (Duisburg) (1987)
Dani Schahin (Hamburg II) (1989)
Savio Nsereko (Brescia Calcio) (1989)
Marvin Pourie (Liverpool Academy) (1992)

[Kaiser]

Russian talents (my post in Russian thread)

[Alan96]

Talents from other countries, which play in the Bundesliga and 2nd Bundesliga

Goalkeepers
Miro Varvodic (Köln) (1989) (Croatia)
Mohamed Amsif (Schalke) (1989) (Morocco)
Marwin Hitz (Wolfsburg) (1987) (Switzerland)

Defenders
Breno (Bayern) (1989) (Brazil) *****
Henrique (Leverkusen) (1986) (Brazil) (Loan from FC Barcelona) *****
Neven Subotic (Dortmund) (1988) (USA/Bosnia/Serbia) *****
Habib Bellaid (Frankfurt) (1986) (France)
Carlos Zambrano (Schalke) (1989) (Peru)
Miroslav Stepanek (Hamburg) (1990) (Czech Republic) (loan to SV Karpfenberg)
Vadis Odjidja-Ofoe (Hamburg) (1989) (Belgium)
Sebastian Prödl (Bremen) (1987) (Austria)

2nd Bundesliga
Matthew Spiranovic (Nürnberg) (1988) (Australia)
Mate Gviniadnidze (1860 München) (1986) (Georgia)
Anderson (Osnabrück) (1988) (Brazil)

Midfielders
Adil Chihi (Köln) (1988) (Morocco)
Isaac Vorsah (Hoffenheim) (1988) (Ghana)
Luiz Gustavo (Hoffenheim) (1987) (Brazil)
Carlos Eduardo (Hoffenheim) (1987) (Brazil) *****
Renato Augusto (Leverkusen) (1988) (Brazil) *****
Artudo Vidal (Leverkusen) (1987) (Chile) *****
Pirmin Schwegler (Leverkusen) (1987) (Switzerland)
Nuri Sahin (Dortmund) (1988) (Turkey)
Michael Bradley (Mönchengladbach) (1987) (USA)
Kreso Ljubicic (Frankfurt) (1988) (Croatia)
Levan Kenia (Schalke) (1990) (Georgia) *****
Ivan Rakitic (Schalke) (1988) (Croatia) *****
Anton Putsilo (Hamburg) (1987) (Belarus) (loan from Dynamo Minsk)
Jonathan Pitroipa (Hamburg) (1986) (Burkina Faso)
Bryan Arguez (Hertha) (1989) (USA)
Fabian Lustenberger (Hertha) (1988) (Switzerland)
Gojko Kacar (Hertha) (1987) (Serbia) *****
Salvatore Zizzo (Hannover) (1986) (USA)
Ibrahima Traore (Hertha II) (1988) (France)
Said Husejinovic (Bremen) (1988) (Bosnia-Herzegovina)
Georges Mandjeck (Stuttgart) (1988) (Cameroon)
Clemens Walch (Stuttgart) (1987) (Austria)
Mergim Mavraj (Bochum) (1986) (Albania)
Christian Fuchs (Bochum) (1986) (Austria)

2nd Bundesliga
Daniel Lemos (Ingolstadt) (1990) (Brazil)
Jahmir Hyka (Mainz) (1988) (Albania)
David Targamadze (Freiburg) (1989) (Georgia)
Gilles Bettmer (Freiburg) (1989) (Luxembourg)
Eke Uzoma (Freiburg) (1989) (Nigeria)
Alain Junior Ollé Ollé (Freiburg) (1987) (Cameroon)
Ivo Ilicevic (Fürth) (1986) (Croatia)
Slobodan Lakicevic (Wiesbaden) (1988) (Montenegro)
Julian Baumgartlinger (1860 München) (1988) (Austria)

Strikers
Wellington (Hoffenheim) (1988) (Brazil)
Chinedu Obasi (Hoffenheim) (1986) (Nigeria) *****
Martin Fenin (Frankfurt) (1987) (Czech Republic) *****
Macauley Christanus (Hamburg) (1990) (Nigeria)
Tunay Torun (Hamburg) (1990) (Turkey)
Mohamed Chermiti (Hertha) (1987) (Tunisia)
Valeri Domovchiyski (Hertha) (1986) (Bulgaria)
Martin Harnik (Bremen) (1987) (Austria)
Caiuby (Wolfsburg) (1988) (Brazil)
Edin Dzeko (Wolfsburg) (1986) (Bosnia-Herzegovina)

2nd Bundesliga
Erik Jendrisek (Kaiserslautern) (1986) (Slovakia)
Anton Makarenko (Augsburg) (1988) (Ukrain)
Valdet Rama (Ingolstadt) (1987) (Albania)
David Hoilett (St. Pauli) (1990) (Canada)

[Thunder_PT]

Portuguese talents playing in Portugal:


Goalkeepers:
Hugo Ventura (FC Porto) (1988)
Rui Patrício (Sporting) (1988) *****
Ricardo Batista (Sporting) (1986)
Mário Felgueiras (Sp. Braga) (1986)
Rui Nereu (Académica) (1986)
Marco Pereira (Trofense) (1987)
Ricardo Ferreira (Olhanense) (1989)
Igor Araújo (Sp. Covilhã) (1987)
Pedro Trigueira (Boavista) (1988)
Diego Silva (Ribeirão) (1989)
Ricardo Janota (Atlético) (1987)
Marco Pinto (BeiraMar Algarve) (1988)

Defenders:
Tengarrinha (FC Porto) (1989)
Daniel Carriço (FC Porto) (1988)
Miguel Vítor (Benfica) (1989)
Rúben Ribeiro (Leixões) (1987)
Vasco Fernandes (Leixões) (1986)
Igor Pita (Nacional) (1989)
André Marques (Vit. Setúbal) (1987) (loan from Sporting)
Fábio Faria (Rio Ave) (1989)
Miguel Lopes (Rio Ave) (1986)
Sílvio (Rio Ave) (1987)
Carlos Alves (Belenenses) (1988)
Mano (Belenenses) (1987)
Tiago Pinto (Trofense) (1988) (loan from Sporting)
João Gonçalves (Olhanense) (1988) (loan from Sporting)
Steven Vitória (Olhanense) (1987) (loan from FC Porto)
Paulo Renato (Olhanense) (1987) (loan from Sporting)
André Pinto (Santa Clara) (1989) (loan from FC Porto)
Bura (Sp. Covilhã) (1988) (loan from FC Porto)
Luís Neto (Varzim) (1988)
Ruben Lima (D. Aves) (1989) (loan from Benfica)
Luís Portela (Pinhalnovense) (1988) (loan from Vit. Setúbal)

Midfielders:
Pelé (FC Porto) (1987)
Adrien Silva (Sporting) (1989)
Miguel Veloso (Sporting) (1986) *****
João Moutinho (Sporting) (1986) *****
Bruno Pereirinha (Sporting) (1988)
Paulo Tavares (Leixões) (1986)
Rúben Micael (Nacional) (1986)
João Aurélio (Nacional) (1988)
Celestino (Est. Amadora) (1987) (loan from Sporting)
Stélvio Cruz (Sp. Braga) (1989)
Tiago Ronaldo (Vit. Guimarães) (1989)
Licá (Académica) (1988)
Vítor Gomes (Rio Ave) (1987)
Hélder Barbosa (Trofense) (1987) (loan from FC Porto)
Cristelo (P. Ferreira) (1989)
Castro (Olhanense) (1988) (loan from FC Porto)
Ivan Santos (Boavista) (1988)
Pedro Moreira (Boavista) (1989)
Nuno Coelho (Portimonense) (1987) (loan from FC Porto)
Miguel Rosa (Estoril) (1989) (loan from Benfica)
Romeu Ribeiro (D. Aves) (1989) (loan from Benfica)
João Martins (Atlético) (1988) (loan from Sporting)
André Santos (Fátima) (1989) (loan from Sporting)
Rúben Saldanha (Esmoriz) (1988) (loan from Leixões)
Zezinando (Real) (1987) (loan from Sporting)

Forwards:
Candeias (FC Porto) (1988)
Rabiola (FC Porto) (1989)
Yannick Djaló (Sporting) (1986)
Nélson Oliveira (Benfica) (1991)
Jorge Monteiro (Est. Amadora) (1988)
Orlando Sá (Sp. Braga) (1988)
Carlos Saleiro (Vit. Setúbal) (1986) (loan from Sporting)
Bruno Gama (Vit. Setúbal) (1987) (loan from FC Porto)
André Carvalhas (Rio Ave) (1989) (loan from Benfica)
David Caiado (Trofense) (1987)
Guedes (P. Ferreira) (1987) (loan from Penafiel)
Ukra (Olhanense) (1988) (loan from FC Porto)
Marco Matias (Varzim) (1989) (loan from Sporting)
Yazalde (Varzim) (1988)
Rui Pedro (Portimonense) (1988) (loan from FC Porto)
Zequinha (Gil Vicente) (1987) (loan from FC Porto)
João Moreira (Beira-Mar) (1986)
Bruno Matias (Fátima) (1989) (loan from Sporting)


Portuguese talents playing abroad:

Defenders:
Manuel da Costa (Fiorentina) (1986)
Antunes (Lecce) (1987) (loan from Roma)
Yago Fernández (Espanyol) (1988)
Pedro Correia (Racing Ferrol) (1987)
João Pedro (Gloria Bistrita) (1987)

Midfielders:
Nani (Manchester Utd.) (1986) *****
Fábio Paim (Chelsea) (1988) (loan from Sporting)
Manuel Fernandes (Valencia) (1986) *****
Fábio Coentrão (Zaragoza) (1988) (loan from Benfica)
Feliciano Condesso (Villarreal) (1987)
Paulo Machado (Saint Étienne) (1986) (loan from FC Porto)

Forwards:
Ricardo Vaz Te (Bolton) (1986)
Amaury Bischoff (Arsenal) (1987)
Diogo Tavares (Frosinone) (1987) (loan from Genoa)
Vieirinha (PAOK) (1986) (loan from FC Porto)
Tiago Targino (Randers) (1986) (loan from Vit. Guimarães)




Foreign talents playing in Portugal:

Goalkeepers:
Lazar Jovisic (Nacional) (1989) (Serbia)
Júlio César (Belenenses) (1986) (Brazil)

Defenders:
Ronny (Sporting) (1986)
Sidnei (Benfica) (1989) (Brazil) *****
David Luiz (Benfica) (1987) (Brazil) *****
Rafik Halliche (Nacional) (1986) (Argelia)
Felipe Lopes (Nacional) (1987) (Brazil)
Diego (Naval) (1986) (Brazil)
João Guilherme (Marítimo) (1986) (Brazil)
Edson (Académica) (1987) (Brazil)
Aly Cissokho (1987) (France)
Baiano (1987) (Brazil)

Midfielders:
Freddy Guarín (FC Porto) (1986) (Colombia)
Fernando (FC Porto) (1987) (Brazil) *****
Simon Vukcevic (Sporting) (1986) (Montenegro)
Fellipe Bastos (Benfica) (1990) (Brazil)
Ángel Di María (Benfica) (1988) (Argentina) *****
Urreta (Benfica) (1990) (Uruguay)
Kristijan Pavlovic (Nacional) (1990) (Croatia)
Lovro Krbec (Nacional) (1990) (Croatia)
Celsinho (Est. Amadora) (1988) (Brazil) (loan from Sporting)
João Luiz (Marítimo) (1989) (Brazil)
Djalma (Marítimo) (1987) (Angola)
Laionel (Vit. Setúbal) (1986) (Brazil)


Forwards:
Hulk (FC Porto) (1986) (Brazil)
Duje Kop (Nacional) (1990) (Croatia)
Baba Diawara (Marítimo) (1988) (Senegal)
Jean Coral (Vit. Guimarães) (1988) (Brazil)
Douglas (Vit. Guimarães) (1986) (Brazil)
Éder (Académica) (1987) (Guinea-Bissau)
Alípio (Rio Ave) (1992) (Brazil) ***** (he's now going to Real Madrid, watch out for this guy)
Evandro Roncatto (Belenenses) (1986) (Brazil)

[Dragonite]

Thunder_PT,

Don’t get me wrong, but how many of these players you’ve actually watched playing?? And this question isn’t just for you; it’s also to other people that posted before you and also to others that may post after.

If you haven’t watched some (most?) of them playing how do you know if they’re good or bad?? Championship Manager, Football Manager, PES?


Your 5 stars in front of Veloso & Moutinho, and not in front of Vukcevic are funny. In my opinion, Vukcevic is much better- perhaps Sporting’s best player. And players like Pelé, Manuel da Costa, Antunes, Paulo Machado, Guarín, Hulk… none of them deserves 5 stars in your opinion, while David Luiz does… Funny.

Nothing personal, I’m just commenting your choices because I know (some) of these players much better than I know the German ones.

[badgerboy]

Link to my thread on the English game (from last season).

And stats from last season for the "big five" leagues

[Thunder_PT]

Thunder_PT,

Don’t get me wrong, but how many of these players you’ve actually watched playing?? And this question isn’t just for you; it’s also to other people that posted before you and also to others that may post after.

If you haven’t watched some (most?) of them playing how do you know if they’re good or bad?? Championship Manager, Football Manager, PES?

I didn't count, but, at most, I didn't watch 20 of them. And the ones I didn't watch, all of them are capped at U21 or U20 level for Portugal and I read good reviews about them.

Your 5 stars in front of Veloso & Moutinho, and not in front of Vukcevic are funny. In my opinion, Vukcevic is much better- perhaps Sporting’s best player. nd players like Pelé, Manuel da Costa, Antunes, Paulo Machado, Guarín, Hulk… none of them deserves 5 stars in your opinion, while David Luiz does… Funny.

Nothing personal, I’m just commenting your choices because I know (some) of these players much better than I know the German ones.

Ok, now it's my turn: How many matches have you watched of those players? Vukcevic is not Sporting's best player. Sure, last year he was the on who caught more attention, but that's because Sporting was a very disorganized team and when that happens the players with an individual style are the ones that stand out. Moutinho and Veloso need a well organized team that know how to play as a team. When they don't have that, they're lost and can't do much, when they do, they're gold. Veloso for me is the new Pirlo when well used. He's great at organizing play from the defensive midfielder position. Oh, and Vukcevic always has problems with his coach. How good of a career can he have continuing like this? After a good last season, this season should be his absolute explosion to put all Europe aware of him. Instead, he'll spend the whole season on the bench.

Pelé barely played for Porto so far, Fernando is the first eleven's defensive midfielder. I understand why you consider him future world class. What you don't know is that he has huge attitude problems and he'll surely end up ruining his career. We've all seen this film many times.

Antunes is sooooooo overrated! P. Ferreira selling them to Roma was their best deal ever. The only reason he plays for the national team sometimes is because we simply don't have a single good left defender. We even prefer to use Paulo Ferreira on the left side against sides that aren't called Malta.

Hulk is just too stupid to be considered future world class. He has some interesting skills. He's strong, fast and shoots really well from range. But he's so dumb I can't see him playing above Porto level. He's the kind of guy that can score an amazing goal after a long run and then be sent off in the most stupidest way (go watch Sporting - Porto of last Sunday if you don't believe me).

Guarín didn't convince me either yet.

About Paulo Machado, I really like him, but he'll have to become good enough to get a place in Porto's squad before being considered future world class. He's almost there, but 5 stars would be overrating him a lot. After all, Moutinho and Veloso are national team guys, he isn't.

Manuel da Costa is the only "complaint" of yours I would understand.

David Luiz is future world class, imo. He's almost always injured, which might hurt his career, but he's very good and can have a great future.


Oh, and I'm a Porto fan. Do you think I have any pleasure in giving 5 stars to David Luiz and forgetting those 4 Porto players?


Maybe we should define world class better. What I call world class is the top 30 the world. I expect those players to be sold to some european giant for at least 20M€. Can you see that happen to Guarín, for example?

[Dragonite]

How many times have I watched those players? It really depends from player to player. Players like Rui Patricio, Veloso, Moutinho, Djaló, Pereirinha, Vukcevic, Di Maria, Fernando, Hulk… I watch them regularly. Some of the players that you mentioned, I watched them a few times playing for the under-17, under-20, under-21 national teams. But a lot of players in your list, I either never watched them, or, if I did, I never noticed them… It’s hard to believe that you know all except 20.

Moutinho and Veloso are, in my opinion, two USELESS players. They don’t have any football skill above the “average”- passing, shooting, dribbling, stamina, top speed, heading...

Moutinho only seems to be good at faking injuries... He would have a bright future in the WWE. He always seems to be “about to die” and in the next moment he is already fit. This trick is very useful for Sporting in Portugal, but in international games (club or country) he is a “nobody” and it doesn’t work.

Veloso is so much fat that his size allows him to intercept some balls... That’s his only “skill”. He is the “new Pirlo”?? Let’s not insult Pirlo, a great champion (2 times CL winner, World Cup winner, etc...)!

Vukcevic has problems with his coach?? So what?? He feels that he is clearly the best player, but he is placed in the subs bench because Sporting “has to” promote the players from the youth team. How would you feel??

I don’t consider Pelé (future) World class. My “World class” status is even more restrictive than yours. In my opinion, if there was such thing as a “World national team”- the 23 best players of the World- 3 goalkeepers, 2 right backs, 4 central defenders, etc... These 23 players would be the “World class” players.

Pelé has problems?? So what?? I would have problems too, if I left a team coached by Mourinho and arrived to a team coached by a dumb “dog” like Jesualdo Ferreira, with teammates such as Lino, Benitez, Sektioui and Sapunaru.

Antunes is over-rated? Moutinho and Veloso are over-rated, not Antunes... I mean, I don’t know how “people” rate him, but they don’t consider him great, they don’t say every day that he’ll be transferred for 30 million euros... They just consider him a good left back (he is!); alongside Jorge Ribeiro and Nuno Valente (ageing) one of the best Portuguese left backs.

Hulk is stupid?? So what?? Aren’t footballers stupid?? Most of them are so stupid that they had to leave school at a very early age. Then some of them have some years of “glory”, but don’t prepare themselves for the days after that, and a few years later they’re poor again- look at Jardel case. And what has that to do with the level that they can reach??

“Playing above Porto level”?? What the hell is that?? Is it playing in Galicia for Celta de Vigo (above Oporto in the map)?? FC Porto is the highest level, from now on he can even play for a richer team that pays him a bigger salary, but he will never play at a higher level, because there is no such thing.

Guarín’s performances for FC Porto aren’t the reason why I consider him good- he rarely plays. I consider him good for watching him playing for Colombia national team, and he is a player that I’ve “heard about” for several years.

Paulo Machado is much better than Moutinho and Veloso. He is good enough to play for FC Porto. And playing for FC Porto isn’t the same thing that playing for Sporting. FC Porto plays to win the League every year and to win European Cups too. Sporting plays to finish 2nd in the league and reaching the CL last 16 (like they’ve done this season for the FIRST TIME) is already a huge achievement for them.

Moutinho and Veloso are national team guys but they don’t have the quality for that- they are called to the “national team” because the “national team” is used not to select the best players but to feed the egos of Benfica and Sporting fans- with terrible consequences.

David Luiz is a “creation” of the Portuguese press- a common player, transformed into an “elite player” by the journalists. Sidnei and Luisão are really good players, and I doubt that Quique Flores will compromise Benfica’s chances of winning trophies by replacing one of them by the “so called elite player”.

I’m a FC Porto fan too, I don’t consider players good or not because of the shirt they wear- they are good or bad independent from the shirt they wear.


The transfer fee of a player isn’t an accurate indicator of how good he is. Zenit paid 30 million euros for Danny, Sporting paid 4 million euros for Izmailov, and Izmailov is a better player. Just because some dumb English or Russian (or other nationality, it isn’t important) spends a fortune on a player, it doesn’t make him better than other player that was transferred for much less (even for free).



I can’t see the future, but according to my definition of “World class”, the player (from your list) that is most likely to become “World Class” in the future is Manuel da Costa... Followed by Vukcevic, Sidnei, Hulk, Di Maria, Guarin, Paulo Machado, Nani, Manuel Fernandes- these 9 players are probably the only ones from your list that “deserve” 5 stars in front of their name.

[Thunder_PT]

How many times have I watched those players? It really depends from player to player. Players like Rui Patricio, Veloso, Moutinho, Djaló, Pereirinha, Vukcevic, Di Maria, Fernando, Hulk… I watch them regularly. Some of the players that you mentioned, I watched them a few times playing for the under-17, under-20, under-21 national teams. But a lot of players in your list, I either never watched them, or, if I did, I never noticed them… It’s hard to believe that you know all except 20.

lol, for some reason I thought it was badgerboy who made your post. That's why I thought it was strange, a foreign asking my how many times I've watched players of the portuguese league, and turned the question around.

Moutinho and Veloso are, in my opinion, two USELESS players. They don’t have any football skill above the “average”- passing, shooting, dribbling, stamina, top speed, heading...

Moutinho only seems to be good at faking injuries... He would have a bright future in the WWE. He always seems to be “about to die” and in the next moment he is already fit. This trick is very useful for Sporting in Portugal, but in international games (club or country) he is a “nobody” and it doesn’t work.

You're putting all players on the same sack... Different positions need different skills. Even on the same position, there are different types of players and none is better than the other one, they're just different and useful in different situations (like Drogba and Villa). And if there's one position where being quick clearly doesn't matter, is midfielder. They're slow, so what?

Moutinho is a hardworking and determined midfielder (and for that even Porto's president said he would like to see him in a Porto shirt, since he was a player with a "Porto style"), he's creative and in a well organized team (which Sporting wasn't last year) can create great chances and plays like he had the experience of a 30 years old, he doesn't tremble in big matches. And his passing his way better than average.

Veloso is so much fat that his size allows him to intercept some balls... That’s his only “skill”. He is the “new Pirlo”?? Let’s not insult Pirlo, a great champion (2 times CL winner, World Cup winner, etc...)!

Pirlo was a great invention of Ancelotti. He was an attacking midfielder, but Ancelotti played him at the defensive midfielder position and made him the playmaker with 3 moving and hardworking midfielders in front of them. That's what Paulo Bento tried to replicate and Veloso was the "Pirlo". And, for me, he has all the characteristics to be successful in that role. He has great vision and passing, the problem was that the players in front of him were too disorganized.

Vukcevic has problems with his coach?? So what?? He feels that he is clearly the best player, but he is placed in the subs bench because Sporting “has to” promote the players from the youth team. How would you feel??

Yeah, and Jesualdo Ferreira feels he has the 3 best goalkeepers of the league, and Stojkovic feels he's the best goalkeeper in the world. Will you take them seriously. And this isn't good news, he had problems with previous coaches too.

I don’t consider Pelé (future) World class. My “World class” status is even more restrictive than yours. In my opinion, if there was such thing as a “World national team”- the 23 best players of the World- 3 goalkeepers, 2 right backs, 4 central defenders, etc... These 23 players would be the “World class” players.

Pelé has problems?? So what?? I would have problems too, if I left a team coached by Mourinho and arrived to a team coached by a dumb “dog” like Jesualdo Ferreira, with teammates such as Lino, Benitez, Sektioui and Sapunaru.

5 stars means "potential world class". Why did you ask 5 stars for him, then?

Pelé doesn't have problems... yet. He's a problematic player with a lack of professionalism. That wasn't visible at Inter, where he was an unknown foreigner and that made him shier. But back in Portugal, he'll feel like he rules the world and will cause some problems. I hope I'm wrong though.

Antunes is over-rated? Moutinho and Veloso are over-rated, not Antunes... I mean, I don’t know how “people” rate him, but they don’t consider him great, they don’t say every day that he’ll be transferred for 30 million euros... They just consider him a good left back (he is!); alongside Jorge Ribeiro and Nuno Valente (ageing) one of the best Portuguese left backs.

That's not saying much, considering the lack of competition in that position. Besides his long shooting, I don't see anything about him that would make him a player of Roma's level.

Hulk is stupid?? So what?? Aren’t footballers stupid?? Most of them are so stupid that they had to leave school at a very early age. Then some of them have some years of “glory”, but don’t prepare themselves for the days after that, and a few years later they’re poor again- look at Jardel case. And what has that to do with the level that they can reach??

I don't mean stupid that way. I mean he's stupid on the field. He makes the dumbest mistakes you can imagine and his last sending off is a good example.

“Playing above Porto level”?? What the hell is that?? Is it playing in Galicia for Celta de Vigo (above Oporto in the map)?? FC Porto is the highest level, from now on he can even play for a richer team that pays him a bigger salary, but he will never play at a higher level, because there is no such thing.

Well, Porto plays in the portuguese league and that clearly limits Porto's level as well. Porto could be the strongest team in the world, but spending a season playing against the likes of Est. Amadora, Trofense and Rio Ave isn't exactly everyone's dreams. Accept it, every Porto player hopes to become good enough to leave the team, if not to a better team, at least to a better league. And it's not just because of the money.

Guarín’s performances for FC Porto aren’t the reason why I consider him good- he rarely plays. I consider him good for watching him playing for Colombia national team, and he is a player that I’ve “heard about” for several years.

It's one thing to say he's good, it's another to say he's a potential world class player (5 stars).

Paulo Machado is much better than Moutinho and Veloso. He is good enough to play for FC Porto. And playing for FC Porto isn’t the same thing that playing for Sporting. FC Porto plays to win the League every year and to win European Cups too. Sporting plays to finish 2nd in the league and reaching the CL last 16 (like they’ve done this season for the FIRST TIME) is already a huge achievement for them.

We'll only know that when he does play for Porto. We'd think Vieirinha or Hélder Barbosa would be good enough to play for Porto too, and they weren't. They all still have time, though.

Moutinho and Veloso are national team guys but they don’t have the quality for that- they are called to the “national team” because the “national team” is used not to select the best players but to feed the egos of Benfica and Sporting fans- with terrible consequences.

Oh, come on... Why was Raul Meireles at the Euro instead of, say, Manuel Fernandes or Carlos Martins, then?

David Luiz is a “creation” of the Portuguese press- a common player, transformed into an “elite player” by the journalists. Sidnei and Luisão are really good players, and I doubt that Quique Flores will compromise Benfica’s chances of winning trophies by replacing one of them by the “so called elite player”.

The portuguese press didn't make him U20 international for Brazil. I think he's good and can have a very bright future. And I think Luisão is overrated too.

The transfer fee of a player isn’t an accurate indicator of how good he is. Zenit paid 30 million euros for Danny, Sporting paid 4 million euros for Izmailov, and Izmailov is a better player. Just because some dumb English or Russian (or other nationality, it isn’t important) spends a fortune on a player, it doesn’t make him better than other player that was transferred for much less (even for free).

Well, that's just because you didn't follow him at Dinamo. I've watched many games of the russian league this season (not so much after moving to the Netherlands in the end of August) and he was simply the best Dinamo player. It was definitely a good buy for Zenit, Dinamo wouldn't let him out for less. I haven't watch him play for Zenit yet, but I've read he's doing great there too.

[Lyonnais]

There are different ways to measure the best potentials.

I chose to take those who have been selected in France U21 since the beginning of the season (5 games).
There is no world class player in this list, but statistically speaking, there is a good chance that one or two become A-internationals.

Lloris and the young Feghouli (18 years old) are the most promising so far.


Keepers

Benoit Costil (Vannes)
Hugo Lloris (Lyon)
Remi Riou (Auxerre)
Stephane Ruffier (Monaco)


Defenders

Habib Bellaid (Frankfurt)
Yohan Benalouane (St Etienne)
Mouhamadou Dabo (St Etienne)
Romain Danze (Rennes)
Bira Dembele (Rennes)
Didier Digard (Middlesborough)
Younes Kaboul (Portsmouth)
Mamadou Sakho (Paris SG)
Charles N'Zogbia (Newcastle)


Midfielders

Yohan Cabaye (Lille)
Clement Chantome (Paris SG)
Mathieu Coutadeur (Le Mans)
Sofiane Feghouli (Grenoble)
Elliot Grandin (Marseille)
Fabien Lemoine (Rennes)
Sylvain Marveaux (Rennes)
Blaise Matuidi (St Etienne)
Damien Plessis (Liverpool)
Moussa Sissoko (Toulouse)
Dimitri Payet (St Etienne)


Forwards

Kevin Gameiro (Lorient)
Yoann Gouffran (Bordeaux)
Jeremy Menez (Roma)
Kevin Monnet-Paquet (Lens)
Anthony Mounier (Lyon)
Frederic Nimani (Monaco)
Loic Remy (Nice)
Julien Quercia (Auxerre)

[Dragonite]

Pirlo was a great invention of Ancelotti. He was an attacking midfielder, but Ancelotti played him at the defensive midfielder position and made him the playmaker with 3 moving and hardworking midfielders in front of them. That's what Paulo Bento tried to replicate and Veloso was the "Pirlo". And, for me, he has all the characteristics to be successful in that role. He has great vision and passing, the problem was that the players in front of him were too disorganized.

Pirlo and Veloso cases are way different.

Pirlo was an attacking midfielder/forward that had to play for Inter where there were players like Ronaldo, Zamorano,Roberto Baggio… and later for AC Milan with players like Shevchenko, Filippo Inzaghi, Tomasson, Rivaldo… So he was “converted” into a central midfielder.

Veloso was an awful central defender that was “converted” to a bad midfielder because in midfield his errors can still be corrected by the defenders behind him.

Vukcevic has problems with his coach?? So what?? He feels that he is clearly the best player, but he is placed in the subs bench because Sporting “has to” promote the players from the youth team. How would you feel??

Yeah, and Jesualdo Ferreira feels he has the 3 best goalkeepers of the league, and Stojkovic feels he's the best goalkeeper in the world. Will you take them seriously. And this isn't good news, he had problems with previous coaches too.

Vukcevic is clearly good enough to play for Sporting starting 11. It’s natural that he will be furious for being in the subs bench.

I don’t consider Pelé (future) World class. My “World class” status is even more restrictive than yours. In my opinion, if there was such thing as a “World national team”- the 23 best players of the World- 3 goalkeepers, 2 right backs, 4 central defenders, etc... These 23 players would be the “World class” players.

Pelé has problems?? So what?? I would have problems too, if I left a team coached by Mourinho and arrived to a team coached by a dumb “dog” like Jesualdo Ferreira, with teammates such as Lino, Benitez, Sektioui and Sapunaru.

5 stars means "potential world class". Why did you ask 5 stars for him, then?

I haven’t asked 5 stars for Pelé- I just said he is better than David Luiz, Veloso, Moutinho.

Well, Porto plays in the portuguese league and that clearly limits Porto's level as well. Porto could be the strongest team in the world, but spending a season playing against the likes of Est. Amadora, Trofense and Rio Ave isn't exactly everyone's dreams. Accept it, every Porto player hopes to become good enough to leave the team, if not to a better team, at least to a better league. And it's not just because of the money.

It’s true that FC Porto faces several “bad” teams, but they also face good opponents- Sporting, Braga and Benfica at least twice per season, and then they face teams like Arsenal, Fenerbahçe, Dinamo Kiev, etc… in the CL (Liverpool, Marseille, Besiktas, Schalke 04, CSKA Moscow, Hamburg, Chelsea…).

Now you are the one putting everybody in the same bag- some players want to play for other teams in other leagues, but others, like Vitor Baia, Jorge Costa… and now Nuno, Pedro Emanuel… these players want to stay in FC Porto forever, they love the club, they prefer to be legends here than “nobodies” somewhere else.

Paulo Machado is much better than Moutinho and Veloso. He is good enough to play for FC Porto. And playing for FC Porto isn’t the same thing that playing for Sporting. FC Porto plays to win the League every year and to win European Cups too. Sporting plays to finish 2nd in the league and reaching the CL last 16 (like they’ve done this season for the FIRST TIME) is already a huge achievement for them.

We'll only know that when he does play for Porto. We'd think Vieirinha or Hélder Barbosa would be good enough to play for Porto too, and they weren't. They all still have time, though.

Vieirinha and Hélder Barbosa (and Bruno Gama, Diogo Valente)… may not be good enough to play for FC Porto, but they’re still better than the wingers that FC Porto has now- Sektioui, Candeias, even Mariano Gonzalez.

Moutinho and Veloso are national team guys but they don’t have the quality for that- they are called to the “national team” because the “national team” is used not to select the best players but to feed the egos of Benfica and Sporting fans- with terrible consequences.

Oh, come on... Why was Raul Meireles at the Euro instead of, say, Manuel Fernandes or Carlos Martins, then?

So, calling Raul Meireles to the national team (a 3 times national champion) proves that the “national team” is being properly managed??? I’m not saying that ALL the players don’t deserve to be there- just a few, like Moutinho and Veloso.

David Luiz is a “creation” of the Portuguese press- a common player, transformed into an “elite player” by the journalists. Sidnei and Luisão are really good players, and I doubt that Quique Flores will compromise Benfica’s chances of winning trophies by replacing one of them by the “so called elite player”.

The portuguese press didn't make him U20 international for Brazil. I think he's good and can have a very bright future. And I think Luisão is overrated too.

Have you watched David Luiz for Brazil under-20?? I have. He was awful... They lost against Poland, South Korea and were eliminated too early, he was sent off...

Luisão is over-rated?? A Copa América winner, member of Brazil 2006 World Cup squad, Portuguese League winner, etc... He is “over-rated”, and a bunch of “press players” without a single achievement aren’t??

The transfer fee of a player isn’t an accurate indicator of how good he is. Zenit paid 30 million euros for Danny, Sporting paid 4 million euros for Izmailov, and Izmailov is a better player. Just because some dumb English or Russian (or other nationality, it isn’t important) spends a fortune on a player, it doesn’t make him better than other player that was transferred for much less (even for free).

Well, that's just because you didn't follow him at Dinamo. I've watched many games of the russian league this season (not so much after moving to the Netherlands in the end of August) and he was simply the best Dinamo player. It was definitely a good buy for Zenit, Dinamo wouldn't let him out for less. I haven't watch him play for Zenit yet, but I've read he's doing great there too.

I’m not saying that Danny is bad- he is good, I even have him in my Fantasy Football team! I’m just saying that transfer fees have nothing to do with players quality. Perhaps the example was unfortunate, although I don’t think it was. There are better players than Danny that were transferred for lower fees.

[Thunder_PT]

Now you are the one putting everybody in the same bag- some players want to play for other teams in other leagues, but others, like Vitor Baia, Jorge Costa… and now Nuno, Pedro Emanuel… these players want to stay in FC Porto forever, they love the club, they prefer to be legends here than “nobodies” somewhere else.

Vítor Baía played for Barcelona and the others just never became good enough to do the same.

Vieirinha and Hélder Barbosa (and Bruno Gama, Diogo Valente)… may not be good enough to play for FC Porto, but they’re still better than the wingers that FC Porto has now- Sektioui, Candeias, even Mariano Gonzalez.

I don't know about that. Everybody always wants what they don't have. If Porto had those 4 wingers, maybe most of the fans would say Tarik Sektioui, Candeias and Mariano were better.

So, calling Raul Meireles to the national team (a 3 times national champion) proves that the “national team” is being properly managed??? I’m not saying that ALL the players don’t deserve to be there- just a few, like Moutinho and Veloso.

No, it proves that your theory that the national team is against Porto is wrong. Raul Meireles isn't that kind of player that absolutely has to be called, if he was absent there wouldn't be much noise about it, so, if the NT was controlled by the Lisbon giants and against Porto as you say, he wouldn't be called.

Have you watched David Luiz for Brazil under-20?? I have. He was awful... They lost against Poland, South Korea and were eliminated too early, he was sent off...

Actually I didn't, the times were really late and I only watched the Portugal games. Still, he had to be good just to be called.

Luisão is over-rated?? A Copa América winner, member of Brazil 2006 World Cup squad, Portuguese League winner, etc... He is “over-rated”, and a bunch of “press players” without a single achievement aren’t??

Those are team achievements. Yes, was part of those teams, but Luiz Cláudio (you know, the guy that played for Boavista) also won the Copa América in 2004 and where's he now?

Adebayor never won a single title. Does that mean he's a bad player?

I’m not saying that Danny is bad- he is good, I even have him in my Fantasy Football team! I’m just saying that transfer fees have nothing to do with players quality. Perhaps the example was unfortunate, although I don’t think it was. There are better players than Danny that were transferred for lower fees.

Transfer fees aren't everything, but they certainly count. After all, nobody will pay more than 20M for a player they're not certain of his quality.

[Dragonite]

Thunder_PT,


Jorge Costa, Pedro Emanuel and Nuno aren’t/weren’t good enough to play in “your leagues”??

Jorge Costa played in the “mighty” English League, and Nuno played in the “magnificent” Spanish league. And it’s irrelevant if they played there or not, they are all World Champions, they were elite players.



About the “national team” management, read my opinion here:

http://kassiesa.nl/uefa/forum2/viewtopi ... c&start=15

After that, you can continue the discussion there if you want to.

Those are team achievements. Yes, was part of those teams, but Luiz Cláudio (you know, the guy that played for Boavista) also won the Copa América in 2004 and where's he now?

Adebayor never won a single title. Does that mean he's a bad player?

No, I don’t know. So, I checked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Am%C3 ... ads#Brazil

I can’t see any Luiz Claudio here! And I don’t care where he is now; in fact I have no idea of who you’re talking about.

Adebayor played the African Nations Cup and World Cup for Togo, he played the Champions League for Monaco and Arsenal and scored some goals… He is good, not as good as some people say but he is good.

[Cirdan]

The 5 Stars (or potencial world class) is always highly subjective. I don't really agree with all of Alans choices either (Wolze and Schorch yes but none of the U19 Euro champs? Levan Kenia yes but no Chrisantus?).

[Thunder_PT]

Thunder_PT,


Jorge Costa, Pedro Emanuel and Nuno aren’t/weren’t good enough to play in “your leagues”??

Jorge Costa played in the “mighty” English League, and Nuno played in the “magnificent” Spanish league. And it’s irrelevant if they played there or not, they are all World Champions, they were elite players.

They were never good enough to play at the best teams of those leagues.

And you know who else is a world champion? Ricardo Costa. Does that make him elite? What about Areias?

Those are team achievements. Yes, was part of those teams, but Luiz Cláudio (you know, the guy that played for Boavista) also won the Copa América in 2004 and where's he now?

Adebayor never won a single title. Does that mean he's a bad player?

No, I don’t know. So, I checked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Am%C3 ... ads#Brazil

I can’t see any Luiz Claudio here! And I don’t care where he is now; in fact I have no idea of who you’re talking about.

Wow, I could swear Luiz Claudio was there, I think I even saw him in 2004's squad in some website (I remember because that surprised me a lot).

Adebayor played the African Nations Cup and World Cup for Togo, he played the Champions League for Monaco and Arsenal and scored some goals… He is good, not as good as some people say but he is good.

What I mean is team achievements don't count that much. Nobody has ever won more titles than Vítor Baía and he's one of the few that won all 3 european cups. But, while he was certainly great, you'll probably agree that he wasn't the best player ever.

Polga is a world champion, Weah never played the World Cup. Katergiannakis is an european champion, Shevchenko never played the Euro. Djimi Traore won the Champions League, Martin Palermo never played the CL. Do these facts make the first players better then the second ones?