2022/2023 Conference League Group G: Slavia Praha - CFR Cluj - Sivasspor - Ballkani

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Post by EarlofBug »

bugylibicska wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 23:37 But if Cluj win Slavia are out. 3 teams with 10 points and Sivasspor 7, Cluj 6, Slavia 4 points.
Interesting, this is the probable scenario imo (what bugily had written).
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Post by Dragonite »

Image

Congratulations Sivasspor! :clapping:
Image

They already progressed from this group. They will win it if they don't lose in Czech Republic, or even if they lose and CFR Cluj wins.

CFR Cluj can't win the group anymore, but will get the second place if they win, or if they draw and Slavia Praha doesn't win, or even if they lose and Slavia Praha also loses.

Slavia Praha will win the group if they win and CFR Cluj doesn't, they will be second placed if they draw and CFR Cluj loses, and they'll be eliminated in all the other scenarios.

Ballkani is already eliminated.

With a picture instead of words now:

Image


Jua Ferreira wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 15:29Now Sivasspor have more club points than Besiktas on 5y ranking. So actually this is another proof regarding malfunction of ranking system.
Sivasspor above Besiktas doesn't prove a ranking malfunction, it proves a Besiktas malfunction.

Besiktas:
2018/2019: 2-1-3 in their EL group
2019/2020: 1-0-5 in their EL group
2020/2021: couldn't reach the groups, eliminated in CL qualifiers by PAOK and then in EL qualifiers by Rio Ave
2021/2022: 0-0-6 in their CL group
2022/2023: inexistent

Sivasspor:
2018/2019: inexistent
2019/2020: inexistent
2020/2021: 2-0-4 in their EL group
2021/2022: couldn't reach the groups, eliminated in Conference League qualifiers by Copenhagen
2022/2023: 3-1-1 in their Conference League group and progressed from it

The way I see it, Besiktas has 10 points in the last half-decade, and Sivasspor has 16, so Sivasspor should be above.
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Post by Bulgarian »

Well your view per usual doesnt tell the whole story.Sivasspor has never reached CL for starters let alone in the last five years.CL competition is the top of the top in football after all isnt it? Furthermore Besiktas has never played in ECLGS where the competition is not as high as the other two leagues.So if we take into account only their EL results it comes to 10-6.If you think that Sivasspor is above Besiktas in any other way other than coef. numbers you are very much mistaken.Plus the two teams already played this season and Besiktas won comfortably.
And what is this inexistent nonsense? What Sivasspor was founded in 2020? Besiktas stopped existing this year? Are they dead? Football is not played from tuesday to thursday.
Besiktas is on the decline the last years though thats as clear as the sky on a sunny day.
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Post by Dragonite »

Bulgarian wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 22:59 Well your view per usual doesnt tell the whole story.Sivasspor has never reached CL for starters let alone in the last five years.CL competition is the top of the top in football after all isnt it? Furthermore Besiktas has never played in ECLGS where the competition is not as high as the other two leagues.So if we take into account only their EL results it comes to 10-6.If you think that Sivasspor is above Besiktas in any other way other than coef. numbers you are very much mistaken.Plus the two teams already played this season and Besiktas won comfortably.
And what is this inexistent nonsense? What Sivasspor was founded in 2020? Besiktas stopped existing this year? Are they dead? Football is not played from tuesday to thursday.
Besiktas is on the decline the last years though thats as clear as the sky on a sunny day.
"Reach the CL" - Besiktas lost every single game that they played in the CL over the last half-decade. If Sivasspor played CL matches worst case scenario they would lose every single game too.

"If we take into account only their EL results" - why should Conference League results be ignored?

I can accept a point system where CL results count for four, EL results count for two and Conference League results count for one.

But then Besiktas' score would be 20, Sivasspor's score would be 22, and Sivasspor would still be above.

Do you wish a point system where the EL to Conference League ratio is higher than 2:1, just to see Besiktas above Sivasspor? :?


Inexistent is not participating in UEFA competitions.
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Post by Bulgarian »

Dragonite wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 09:27
Bulgarian wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 22:59 Well your view per usual doesnt tell the whole story.Sivasspor has never reached CL for starters let alone in the last five years.CL competition is the top of the top in football after all isnt it? Furthermore Besiktas has never played in ECLGS where the competition is not as high as the other two leagues.So if we take into account only their EL results it comes to 10-6.If you think that Sivasspor is above Besiktas in any other way other than coef. numbers you are very much mistaken.Plus the two teams already played this season and Besiktas won comfortably.
And what is this inexistent nonsense? What Sivasspor was founded in 2020? Besiktas stopped existing this year? Are they dead? Football is not played from tuesday to thursday.
Besiktas is on the decline the last years though thats as clear as the sky on a sunny day.
"Reach the CL" - Besiktas lost every single game that they played in the CL over the last half-decade. If Sivasspor played CL matches worst case scenario they would lose every single game too.

"If we take into account only their EL results" - why should Conference League results be ignored?

I can accept a point system where CL results count for four, EL results count for two and Conference League results count for one.

But then Besiktas' score would be 20, Sivasspor's score would be 22, and Sivasspor would still be above.

Do you wish a point system where the EL to Conference League ratio is higher than 2:1, just to see Besiktas above Sivasspor? :?


Inexistent is not participating in UEFA competitions.
1.Your point? Besiktas showed the quality to reach CLGS which is the top of european football while Sivasspor have not even done that ONCE EVER! They cant even get the "chance" to go 0-0-6.
2.Well in order to see who did better when the condition were fairly even a.k.a. participating in the same league you need to compare their participation in the same league -> 10:6.Thats of course by your logic because you ignore anything but european results.For me i can additionally check the league results and scrolling down the years i have to go back 14(!!!) years to see Sivasspors last finish above BJK.And what a finish it is...on goal difference by two goals.
3.Theres no need of such system.Just take the ECL results with a pinch of salt unless one team played a group of idk Barca Chelsea BVB.
4.As i said i dont with a new system and whats this language "just to see Besiktas above Sivasspor" you are portraying me as if i hate Sivasspor :grin1:
5.Then use not participated.Clubs still play competitive football even if they are not in Europe otherwise by your standards there would be around 300 teams in Europe "existing" which sounds stupid sorry to say.
Genuine question -> Do you believe Sivasspor is better than BJK?
I am willing to bet all my savings that if you asked 100 turkish football fans this question and they have to answer honestly OVER 95 will say BJK.
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Post by bjkman1903 »

Guys, it's pointless to argue about quality or strength of teams based on coefficient points (it's also totally off-topic)

Yes, Sivasspor may have scored more points than Besiktas (and Trabzonspor btw) in the last five years. But they are obviously a much weaker side than Besiktas or Trabzonspor (see H2H or final rankings in domestic league, or any kind of ranking except coefficient)

---

I really hope that Cluj wins against Ballkani because Sivasspor can't be trusted in Europe.
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Post by Dragonite »

Talking about Sivasspor and its Conference League results allowing it to be above Besiktas in UEFA Club Ranking isn't off-topic. :wink:


Bulgarian, you're not telling me the full story, are you? :grin1:

If Besiktas is so good collecting points domestically and Sivasspor isn't, why is Sivasspor competing in UEFA competitions this season while Besiktas isn't?


"Being better" is subjective. Sivasspor's results between 2018/2019 and 2022/2023 are better than Besiktas's results. However, why should we consider 5 seasons only, why not 6?

If we consider 6 seasons instead of 5, then Besiktas' 2017/2018 CL campaign changes things. :wink:


And I'll give you some friendly advice. Don't give give too much credit to the opinions (wishes?) of "100 (Turkish) football fans".

If you asked them about Turkey's Euro 2020 result (bottom of the group losing every match), how many would be right?

If you asked them if Turkey would prevail against Portugal in the 2022 WC playoff, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Trabzonspor would prevail against Copenhagen in the CL playoff, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Fenerbahçe would prevail against Dynamo Kyiv in the CL qualifiers, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Sivasspor would prevail against Malmö in the EL qualifiers, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Konyaspor would prevail against Vaduz in the Conference League qualifiers, how many would say yes?


I would say that most of them would be wrong about more than half of these questions.

They massively overestimate the teams they like/know and underestimate the teams that they dislike/don't know.


By the way, this isn't exclusive from Turkish football fans, fans from other countries are the same.
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Post by Jua Ferreira »

Dragonite wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:34 And I'll give you some friendly advice. Don't give give too much credit to the opinions (wishes?) of "100 (Turkish) football fans".

If you asked them about Turkey's Euro 2020 result (bottom of the group losing every match), how many would be right?

If you asked them if Turkey would prevail against Portugal in the 2022 WC playoff, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Trabzonspor would prevail against Copenhagen in the CL playoff, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Fenerbahçe would prevail against Dynamo Kyiv in the CL qualifiers, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Sivasspor would prevail against Malmö in the EL qualifiers, how many would say yes?

If you asked them if Konyaspor would prevail against Vaduz in the Conference League qualifiers, how many would say yes?

I would say that most of them would be wrong about more than half of these questions.
They massively overestimate the teams they like/know and underestimate the teams that they dislike/don't know.
By the way, this isn't exclusive from Turkish football fans, fans from other countries are the same.
Actually, most of Turkish fans could answer above questions in correct way. Especially for Turkish fans in this forum,
1- Turkey's 2020 result is not shocking for most of all. We are well aware of our degenerated national team's strength.
2- Defeating Portugal in decisive away game? Most of us did not even dream about it. Turkey has never reached the level of Portugal except for 2002 (even we had better results in 2008 but it was thanks to luck+devotement, not due to quality or strength)
3- None of Turkish fans said Trabzonspor had a chance to win against Copenhagen(I know they are weak also but Trabzonspor is another level) On opposite way, we always have said they were to fail.
4- For Fenerbahçe - Dynamo Kiev clash, may be %50 Turkish fans could have said Fenerbahçe would prevail. But this cant proof anything you've said since the final results depends on many thing like current performance, luck, referee etc and not only strength. Then Fenerbahçe were not in good shape (classic preseason of Turkish teams) and not lucky at all + one unexperienced player sent off in silly way.
5- None of us could have said Sivasspor better than Malmö and prevail over them. Malmö easily defeated Sivas in two games and got 3 coef points in 5 MD (which is a bonus) while Sivasspor has much more now thanks to ECL. Does this sound logical to you? Theoretically, if somehow Sivasspor+Malmö cant participate next 4 consecutive years in Europe games, Sivasspor shall be above Malmö. Nonsense at all. It also applies for Celtic+Rangers, they have 6 and 4 points in this season respectively while sivasspor have 8 and can get more if Cluj beat Ballkani while Sivasspor lose. Funny actually.
6- Konyaspor - Vaduz, may be only this question could have get more than %50. Again, luck+preseason+unpredictability of football games may cause misguess. This kind of misguess happens occasionally and this unpredictability makes football good.

So, you actually thinking wrongly. Most of regular fans could be right about half of these questions. Especially regular followers.

We do not overestimate teams we like/know. On opposite way, we always underestimate the teams of our country (like every fans from other countries do) Because every fan here are well aware that there is not big strength gap between Europeen teams and this cause very surpriseful results especially in Europa League and ECL.

Returning to the main subject, winning against unstable Cluj+weak Ballkani does not make Sivasspor better than Besiktas lost against Dortmund, Ajax, Sporting CP and Rangers lost against Liverpool, Napoli, Ajax. We don't need to be a professor to understand this or do not need to calculate in other ways.

UEFA should definitely change the system it uses for coef points or at least use ELO system.

Wow, i've just noticed that Barcelona have 9 club points this year while Sivasspor have 8 :D :D and if Cluj wins tomorrow Sivasspor shall have 9 even if they lose to Sl. Prague :D
Last edited by Jua Ferreira on Wed Nov 02, 2022 13:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bulgarian »

I am not telling you the full story? :confused:
Well maybe because Sivasspor was in a tournament that didnt need points collecting to go to Europe.Are you playing silly? Are you now implying that they are better because they won a cup? Ok is Liverpool better than City then? They won two cups and finished barely behind them lol.I`ll give you a even better example last year St.Johnstone won two domestic cups.So are they the best team in Scotland for that year.This is a very silly logic!

You considered only five seasons in the first place.

Your advice is wrong.Firstly a turkish football fan knows waaaaay more than me and you combined about their football.You took my statement and did a very nasty twist to it.You knew what i meant but in case you didnt i will explain the difference.
In my example i am asking 100 turkish fans to say who is better between two turkish clubs..In neither of yours there is a domestic "flavour" to it.Its all international related.Do you get the difference?

I still didnt get my answer so i will ask again - do you think Sivasspor is better than BJK? Tell me a simple yes or no.Dont dance around it by calling it subjective.
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Post by Dragonite »

@Jua Ferreira , by "100 Turkish football fans" I wasn't thinking about any member of this forum. I was thinking about for instance twitter polls, and when Trabzonspor vs Copenhagen happened, the most popular choice for "which team will advance" was Trabzonspor.

And I saw the same "optimism" for the national team, and for Fenerbahçe, and in several other occasions.


@Bulgarian ,

I prefer to look at more than just last five seasons, so Besiktas is better than Sivasspor.

However, looking at last five seasons UEFA-style, then Sivasspor is better.


I'll repeat what I wrote originally, this is not a failure of UEFA's ranking, it's a failure of Besiktas to get the kind of results that they used to get in the previous half-decade.
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Post by Bulgarian »

Besiktas`s failure cannot be denied.
However i like the Malmo-Sivasspor example.It describes the best the failure of UEFA coefficients.
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Post by Dragonite »

Bulgarian wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 14:36 Besiktas`s failure cannot be denied.
However i like the Malmo-Sivasspor example.It describes the best the failure of UEFA coefficients.
I disagree.

You're implying that because Malmö defeated Sivasspor in the EL qualifiers, if after that Malmö's results are awful in a higher level and Sivasspor's results are awesome in a lower level, UEFA coefficients should still show Malmö above.

So let's use Malmö again, but this time with Rangers last season.

Malmö prevailed against Rangers in the CL qualifiers. After that, Malmö's result in CL was 0-1-5. Meanwhile, Rangers's result was 6-4-5 in EL.

Rangers' coefficient for that season: 19
Malmö's coefficient for that season: 5

Should Malmö's coefficient be 20+ just because they defeated Rangers and after that Rangers had an awesome EL campaign while Malmö did nothing else?


I don't consider this an example of a failure in UEFA ranking.


Plus UEFA's rankings consider 5 years, not 1. Malmö collecting more or less points than Sivasspor or Rangers in individual seasons is irrelevant, what matter is their scores in half-decades.
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Post by JPV »

Dragonite wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:37 Besiktas:
2018/2019: 2-1-3 in their EL group
2019/2020: 1-0-5 in their EL group
2020/2021: couldn't reach the groups, eliminated in CL qualifiers by PAOK and then in EL qualifiers by Rio Ave
2021/2022: 0-0-6 in their CL group
2022/2023: inexistent

Sivasspor:
2018/2019: inexistent
2019/2020: inexistent
2020/2021: 2-0-4 in their EL group
2021/2022: couldn't reach the groups, eliminated in Conference League qualifiers by Copenhagen
2022/2023: 3-1-1 in their Conference League group and progressed from it

The way I see it, Besiktas has 10 points in the last half-decade, and Sivasspor has 16, so Sivasspor should be above.
What's more important to compare teams playing only a few games a year, is what the opponents did afterwards.

Besiktas
2018/2019: The 2 teams who qualified (Genk & Malmo, 2 lower-rated teams), lost their round 2 encounters vs Slavia Praha and Chelsea
2019/2020: Braga lost vs Glasgow Rangers, Wolverhampton won vs Espanyol and Piraeus, lost vs Sevilla in QF (eventual winners)
2020/2021: PAOK won vs Benfica (at home), lost vs Krasnodar. Rio Ave lost vs AC Milan
2021/2022: Ajax and Sporting Lisbon failed in the next round, 3rd in the group Dortmund lost in knockouts.

Sivasspor:
2020/2021: Villareal won the EL, Maccabi lost in round 2.
2021/2022: Kobenhavn won the ECL group, but lost in round of 16 vs PSV
2022/2023: ongoing.

Even though there's also not much data, Sivasspors opponents won progressed slightly further, it seems.
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Post by bjkman1903 »

Turkey will have at least 3 teams in ECL next season. So it is likely that (if they qualify) Besiktas will be in this competition.
You will then have more data to compare :grin1:
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Post by Bulgarian »

Dragonite wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 14:55

I disagree.

You're implying that because Malmö defeated Sivasspor in the EL qualifiers, if after that Malmö's results are awful in a higher level and Sivasspor's results are awesome in a lower level, UEFA coefficients should still show Malmö above.

So let's use Malmö again, but this time with Rangers last season.

Malmö prevailed against Rangers in the CL qualifiers. After that, Malmö's result in CL was 0-1-5. Meanwhile, Rangers's result was 6-4-5 in EL.

Rangers' coefficient for that season: 19
Malmö's coefficient for that season: 5

Should Malmö's coefficient be 20+ just because they defeated Rangers and after that Rangers had an awesome EL campaign while Malmö did nothing else?
I am implying that the system overall is not very fair.
But good counter arguement.Fair enough.
Lets see if Sivasspor will reach ECL final :grin1:
@bjkman1903 i think BJK will struggle to get to Europe this year too.Fener and Basaksehir look strong and Demirspor also looks solid.I wouldnt be surprised even if two of the big 5 miss on Europe.
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