2022/23 Champions League Round of 16

[Dragonite]

Different people are impressed by different things.

I'm impressed by a manager that arrived to a team that last season got 4 points in its CL group, and this time with him in charge they got 11! That's a 175% improvement. And it can still get better.

Others aren't impressed by this, and somehow are more impressed with "achievements" like spending some time in Fulham.

Unless the time that he spent at Fulham was in the 2009/2010 season when they reached the EL final, then that means nothing to me.


But although this Scott Parker is a random manager, at least as a player he had excellent managers (Mourinho in Chelsea, and then André Villas-Boas in Tottenham).

We'll see in February and March against Benfica if the pupil learned something from the masters.

[rpo.castro]

You are impressed by a manager that is 12 pts behind his primary goal, and shocked he is sacked due to that and by just winning 2 matches in last 9. Thats really impressive!

[Greyn]

We all know what is @Dragonite 's attitude toward domestic competitions - famous "glorified training sessions".

I agree with @rpo.castro here, Brugge not only have a huge -12 points deficit to Genk, who occupy 1st place. They are also only 3 points above Championship Play-offs line. Gent, who are currently 5th, are currently in a very good shape, at least their results suggest so, 3 wins and 2 draws in last 5 games. I think that the club board made a correct decision with firing the coach. If they want to save a domestic season and qualify for the next edition of CL it was a necessary move.

With all respect to Club Brugge, chances of going far in the CL KO stage are not too high with any coach. It will be already very tough vs Benfica, who are clear favorites in this tie and still would be with previous Brugge coach. It is only harder and harder with every next round and let's face it - quarter-finals of the CL is almost a closed circle. If not for same clubs, then for clubs from same countries.

[Dragonite]

I think that the club board made a correct decision with firing the coach. If they want to save a domestic season and qualify for the next edition of CL it was a necessary move.

With all respect to Club Brugge, chances of going far in the CL KO stage are not too high with any coach. It will be already very tough vs Benfica, who are clear favorites in this tie and still would be with previous Brugge coach. It is only harder and harder with every next round and let's face it - quarter-finals of the CL is almost a closed circle. If not for same clubs, then for clubs from same countries.

Last season in Belgian League after 18 rounds Club Brugge had 36 points.
This season in Belgian League after 18 rounds Club Brugge has 34 points.

So if Carl Hoefkens indeed was fired because of bad results domestically, the so-called "bad result" is... having only 34 points instead of 36!!!

I was expecting a massive decline, something like 50%, in order to "explain" this.


In brief, he improves SEVEN POINTS (175%) internationally, regresses TWO POINTS (5%) domestically, and somehow, domestic -2 outweights international +7!!

Unbelievable!


I hope that Club Brugge spends another three decades without ever progressing from the CL groups, so that they understand the magnitude of what Carl Hoefkens achieved here.

[Greyn]

It is all about if the club board believes that the team will make a progression or regression with the current coach. If a club like Club Brugge has 2 wins in 9 last domestic matches, then seems like something is wrong. With, for example, 4 wins and 1 draw in last 5 matches it would be completely different story and I am sure that Hoefkens would stay. Nobody denies what he has done with Brugge in the Champions League, but there are no sentiments at this level - too much money at stake. The club budget and the future of the club depend a lot from finishing position in the Belgian league and it looks like the team needs some impulse to start playing better.

[Dragonite]

It is all about if the club board believes that the team will make a progression or regression with the current coach. If a club like Club Brugge has 2 wins in 9 last domestic matches, then seems like something is wrong. With, for example, 4 wins and 1 draw in last 5 matches it would be completely different story and I am sure that Hoefkens would stay. Nobody denies what he has done with Brugge in the Champions League, but there are no sentiments at this level - too much money at stake. The club budget and the future of the club depend a lot from finishing position in the Belgian league and it looks like the team needs some impulse to start playing better.

They have 4 wins in the last 9 domestic matches, not 2.

1-0 win vs Anderlecht on Oct 16th
3-0 win vs St. Truiden on Oct 19th
2-2 draw vs Saint-Gilloise on Oct 22nd
4-2 win vs Oostende on Oct 29th
0-2 defeat vs Gent on Nov 6th
2-0 win vs Patro Eisden on Nov 9th
2-2 draw vs Antwerp on Nov 13th
1-4 defeat vs Sint-Truiden on Dec 21st
1-1 draw vs Leuven on Dec 26th


The bad results are basically in November/December, after brilliant results between August and October. Note that November/December are World Cup months, club teams shouldn't even be playing at all, and it's natural that the focus is elsewhere.


The short-termism was even shorter than that, it was just 5 matches (two for the Cup by the way) in less than two months!!

[Nafi]

I think that the club board made a correct decision with firing the coach. If they want to save a domestic season and qualify for the next edition of CL it was a necessary move.

With all respect to Club Brugge, chances of going far in the CL KO stage are not too high with any coach. It will be already very tough vs Benfica, who are clear favorites in this tie and still would be with previous Brugge coach. It is only harder and harder with every next round and let's face it - quarter-finals of the CL is almost a closed circle. If not for same clubs, then for clubs from same countries.

Last season in Belgian League after 18 rounds Club Brugge had 36 points.
This season in Belgian League after 18 rounds Club Brugge has 34 points.

So if Carl Hoefkens indeed was fired because of bad results domestically, the so-called "bad result" is... having only 34 points instead of 36!!!

I was expecting a massive decline, something like 50%, in order to "explain" this.


In brief, he improves SEVEN POINTS (175%) internationally, regresses TWO POINTS (5%) domestically, and somehow, domestic -2 outweights international +7!!

Unbelievable!


I hope that Club Brugge spends another three decades without ever progressing from the CL groups, so that they understand the magnitude of what Carl Hoefkens achieved here.

Philippe Clement left Club for Monaco last December. He solved the issue for the board of Directors.

[Dragonite]

Philippe Clement left Club for Monaco last December. He solved the issue for the board of Directors.

Good point, but...

Two seasons ago (in 2020/2021) Club Brugge also had 36 points after 18 rounds domestically.

So that's 36 points after 18 rounds in 2020/2021, 36 points after 18 rounds in 2021/2022, and this time 34 points after 18 rounds.


The domestic results are consistent with the results from the previous two seasons.

The "bad domestic streak" isn't that bad after all - only 5 matches, 2 of them in the Cup, and in World Cup months where club football shouldn't even be happening.


Something else must have happened. Perhaps @dnina10 can explain this.

[rpo.castro]

12 points behind the leader and 2 wins in last 9 matches is what's happened.
WC is just an excuse. Being 2 matches for the cups what that softens the blow? With only 2 wins in last 9 matches we will never recovery a 12 point deficit to Genk (its not like having a 4 pts deficit to USG past season). Maybe the coach can repair the damage this one made, but for sure the board couldn't watch the boat sinking and keep whistling.

For more photoshop you are doing picking the results you want, since he got some gifts from Porto at Dragão and getting a very week Atletico Madrid, he is underperforming, in a descending streak compromissing CLGS next season. That's very very different from a good job, once he was sacked.

[matt]

I guess, beyond the things already mentioned, that the Club Brugge board might think that the great CL run is due more to a long process of building a competitive team year after year (and the work of previous managers) than to the achievement of a manager in Brugge since just a few months.

[dnina10]

Philippe Clement left Club for Monaco last December. He solved the issue for the board of Directors.

Good point, but...

Two seasons ago (in 2020/2021) Club Brugge also had 36 points after 18 rounds domestically.

So that's 36 points after 18 rounds in 2020/2021, 36 points after 18 rounds in 2021/2022, and this time 34 points after 18 rounds.


The domestic results are consistent with the results from the previous two seasons.

The "bad domestic streak" isn't that bad after all - only 5 matches, 2 of them in the Cup, and in World Cup months where club football shouldn't even be happening.


Something else must have happened. Perhaps @dnina10 can explain this.

I think it is worth reminding you all that the Jupiler Pro League operates on a different league format to most. At the end of the regular season, points are halved for the playoffs. Not too many leagues do this. So, with that in mind, the 38 and 36 points from a possible 54 is not too horrible.

Now, one must also understand that the standard at Club Brugge now is very different of that from two years ago. Philippe Clement was on better terms and had already proven himself as a quality manager. Before this campaign, Carl Hoefkens had never taken charge of a senior team. I think a lot of people are too caught up on Club's Champions League performances versus domestic. They had won like one league game immediately following a CL game, which just isn't good enough. They were lucky against Genk, who they managed to beat. Outside of the leaders, only Anderlecht they have beaten of the other top clubs. They were well beaten by Gent and Standard, and threw away two-goal leads against Union and Antwerp, worse with a man advantage versus the former.

The performances under Hoefkens seldom impressed in recent months. What I can say is that the board was expecting fairly straightforward wins at home to Sint-Truiden (cup) and OH Leuven (league). Instead, they were humiliated by the former, which saw the board have a crisis meeting with Hoefkens and warn him in essence that he's on very thin ice. Then in the latter game, they led until the 90th minute where Leuven equalized. From the writing was on the wall.

I will stress again that Club Brugge is at a level now where they should be running away with the league. They have the most money by far, and their squad really should be doing much more domestically. Many analysts already have fears that Club will start becoming Bayern in the sense that they win the JPL every year. I never had this feeling, and unless they get their act together in the second half of the season, there will be a new champion in Belgium

[Dragonite]

Thank you @dnina10 !


Do you think that Club Brugge's playing style is more suitable for CL matches against strong opposition, and then domestically it's not good enough to win repeatedly against weaker teams?

And if they change their playing style to "smash minnows" mode, they would probably have more 10 points domestically but in return they would have finished bottom of their CL group without a single win?

Will Scott Parker bring a new playing style with him, and perhaps new players too in the January transfer window?


And finally, which Belgian team would you like to see in the 2023/2024 CL?

[dnina10]

Thank you @dnina10 !


Do you think that Club Brugge's playing style is more suitable for CL matches against strong opposition, and then domestically it's not good enough to win repeatedly against weaker teams?

And if they change their playing style to "smash minnows" mode, they would probably have more 10 points domestically but in return they would have finished bottom of their CL group without a single win?

Will Scott Parker bring a new playing style with him, and perhaps new players too in the January transfer window?


And finally, which Belgian team would you like to see in the 2023/2024 CL?

Starting with the bolded question, I think we all know which Belgian team I would like to see in the CL next season

From a more realistic standpoint, I would love to see Genk return. Then again, whether they will actually a) get to the CL GS and b) win some games is another matter. Outside of them, Gent would be great to see as well.

Will Scott Parker bring a new playing style? I don't know. From when I used to watch his Fulham side in the Prem, they were a decent team. How much he will change time will tell. There are questions as to whether abandoned captian Ruud Vormer will be recalled and playing regular minutes in the team, but I would not expect that to happen.

For the January transfer window, I did hear that they want to get a couple of players. It is worth noting that Club had the chance to get Steven Gerrard, but the salary was an issue. I'm thinking if they had gotten him, there would be very few, if any players coming in January. Expect some players to come in, and some to leave.

To the first question, I would say that they have become one of those who focuses a bit too much on playing in Europe. Last season was very much the same way. Club had put a lot of focus on the CL and domestic performances struggled. I wouldn't be surprised if they beat Benfica and then struggle to make Playoffs 1

[matt]

To the first question, I would say that they have become one of those who focuses a bit too much on playing in Europe. Last season was very much the same way. Club had put a lot of focus on the CL and domestic performances struggled. I wouldn't be surprised if they beat Benfica and then struggle to make Playoffs 1

The halving of points after the regular season is to blame: it really does not incentive the top teams to fully focus on the league in the first half of the season. A team like Club Brugge, as long as it is in the top 4, might get complacent after a while, especially after they weren't first for almost the whole 2021-2022 season and still won the league.

[amirbachar]

To the first question, I would say that they have become one of those who focuses a bit too much on playing in Europe. Last season was very much the same way. Club had put a lot of focus on the CL and domestic performances struggled. I wouldn't be surprised if they beat Benfica and then struggle to make Playoffs 1

The halving of points after the regular season is to blame: it really does not incentive the top teams to fully focus on the league in the first half of the season. A team like Club Brugge, as long as it is in the top 4, might get complacent after a while, especially after they weren't first for almost the whole 2021-2022 season and still won the league.

In most major sports the points are truncated completely and there is a playoff. The interest of the crowd is the most important for small leagues and also brings the success