Battle for important ranking positions 2023-24

[Juliusz]

Probably there will be fewer qualification matches but points at qualifiers are half.

There will be more due to expanded EL qualifying and play-off rounds in all competitions (more clubs advancing to the league phase).

This season we had 399 qualifying matches.

Next season it would be 450 in the base format, without taking rebalancing into account.

[Lyonnais]

it would be interesting to see Opta projections after the draw to see how much the draw had an impact (if they disclose it of course)

[Overgame]

There is an easy way to count how many games have to be played in a qualifiers (minus 1 in CL in the old system due to the PR being different): Add the number of teams in each round.

Let's look at 21/22 (so Russia is included)
CL: 4 + 8 + 6 + 8 + 12 + 20 + 32 + 4 - 1 = 93
EL: = 20 + 6 + 10 = 36
ECL: 34 + 54 + 90 + 66 + 10 + 10 + 18 = 282
Total: 411

Note that the CLTH and ELTH spots weren't used, and the ECL winner freed a spot in ECLPO in 21/22, slightly lowering the number of games (2 in CL, 6 in ECL). So for a fair comparaison with the new system, we should add 8 games, for a total of 419.

New system
CL: 4 + 8 + 6 + 10 + 12 + 24 + 32 = 96
EL: 24 + 14 + 16 + 18 + 12 = 84
ECL: 38 + 52 + 88 + 58 + 10 + 8 + 16 = 270
Total: 450

[bugylibicska]

2 countries (Italy and France) haven't lost a single team! I don't know about Italy, but I think it never happened to France. 2 countries (Serbia and Sweden) lost all their teams and both countries performed disastrously.

It already happened for France season 2021/22

Paris and Lille qualified in CL
Lyon and Monaco winners of their EL group, Marseille reversed to ECL
Rennes winner of the ECL group

Thanks. The closer the past the worse my memory.

[babaluj1]

If Fiorentina had defeated Ferencvaroš, Belgium 11.600 would have had as many as 4 representatives in the ECL and a great opportunity to get involved in the fight for the Top 2 places in the Country ranking with a good draw. Brugge in the round of 16, and Genk, Gent and Royale Union in the knock out PO ECL. There are other weak opponents that the Belgians can easily beat twice and take 12 points only in the PO + bonus point for Genk's second place, that's 14.200 coefficient and first place in Country ranking before Round of 16 ECL.
Belgium has too weak clubs for CL and EL, but just right for ECL! That strange distribution of points where you can get up to 38 in the CL, up to 34 in the EL, and up to 30 in the ECL has already been used by the Netherlands once. Realistically, that difference between the leagues should be 40-30-20 as the maximum number of points.

[Club-Mate]

If Fiorentina had defeated Ferencvaroš, Belgium 11.600 would have had as many as 4 representatives in the ECL and a great opportunity to get involved in the fight for the Top 2 places in the Country ranking with a good draw. Brugge in the round of 16, and Genk, Gent and Royale Union in the knock out PO ECL. There are other weak opponents that the Belgians can easily beat twice and take 12 points only in the PO + bonus point for Genk's second place, that's 14.200 coefficient and first place in Country ranking before Round of 16 ECL.
Belgium has too weak clubs for CL and EL, but just right for ECL! That strange distribution of points where you can get up to 38 in the CL, up to 34 in the EL, and up to 30 in the ECL has already been used by the Netherlands once. Realistically, that difference between the leagues should be 40-30-20 as the maximum number of points.

Thank you for being courageous enough to mention it. I already wanted to point this out earlier. Belgium is the biggest beneficiary so far of this new and very questionable reform to give up to 3 teams the possibility to play in the Conference League within one year and herewith collecting a massive amount of points and destorting the rankings as well as for countries and clubs. In this period of 3 seasons (2021 to 2023) Belgium had 6 teams in ECL (Genk participated every year and being clever enough this year or even too weak, however you see it, to loose against Olympiakos in Qu3 and smoothly slide over to the Convenience League. Belgium collected 67 ! points in this period only in ECL. 2 years ago Belgium were only 13th and 8 pts behind Austria which was 8th. There are of course more reasons why this big change happened. Netherlands and Czechia with 5 teams and Turkey and Denmark with 4 teams completed this list.
The big looser was Portugal with not even one team in ECL. They played with up to 3 teams in Champions League and made a respectabel amount of points there but never had the chance to compete with the Lords of Conference pointwise. So Portugal lost the 6th place where they actually belong to to The Netherlands for the next years and some of their 3 or 4 top teams cant't play CL anymore.
Uefa does not care about it they only care about the big countries where the money comes from. Did an organization like Uefa being under control of EU competition rules like every other big concern in Europe or the whole world (Microsoft, Google etc already were sued) you could sue this Uefa organization in the European Court of Justice for distortion of competition and unjustified discrimination against other clubs. But Uefa is uncomplainable they can virtually do whatever they prefer.
Thus max. one club per country in ECL and best starting only with them from place 15 onwards and halving the points so nothing could be damaged.

[babaluj1]

If Fiorentina had defeated Ferencvaroš, Belgium 11.600 would have had as many as 4 representatives in the ECL and a great opportunity to get involved in the fight for the Top 2 places in the Country ranking with a good draw. Brugge in the round of 16, and Genk, Gent and Royale Union in the knock out PO ECL. There are other weak opponents that the Belgians can easily beat twice and take 12 points only in the PO + bonus point for Genk's second place, that's 14.200 coefficient and first place in Country ranking before Round of 16 ECL.
Belgium has too weak clubs for CL and EL, but just right for ECL! That strange distribution of points where you can get up to 38 in the CL, up to 34 in the EL, and up to 30 in the ECL has already been used by the Netherlands once. Realistically, that difference between the leagues should be 40-30-20 as the maximum number of points.

Thank you for being courageous enough to mention it. I already wanted to point this out earlier. Belgium is the biggest beneficiary so far of this new and very questionable reform to give up to 3 teams the possibility to play in the Conference League within one year and herewith collecting a massive amount of points and destorting the rankings as well as for countries and clubs. In this period of 3 seasons (2021 to 2023) Belgium had 6 teams in ECL (Genk participated every year and being clever enough this year or even too weak, however you see it, to loose against Olympiakos in Qu3 and smoothly slide over to the Convenience League. Belgium collected 67 ! points in this period only in ECL. 2 years ago Belgium were only 13th and 8 pts behind Austria which was 8th. There are of course more reasons why this big change happened. Netherlands and Czechia with 5 teams and Turkey and Denmark with 4 teams completed this list.
The big looser was Portugal with not even one team in ECL. They played with up to 3 teams in Champions League and made a respectabel amount of points there but never had the chance to compete with the Lords of Conference pointwise. So Portugal lost the 6th place where they actually belong to to The Netherlands for the next years and some of their 3 or 4 top teams cant't play CL anymore.
Uefa does not care about it they only care about the big countries where the money comes from. Did an organization like Uefa being under control of EU competition rules like every other big concern in Europe or the whole world (Microsoft, Google etc already were sued) you could sue this Uefa organization in the European Court of Justice for distortion of competition and unjustified discrimination against other clubs. But Uefa is uncomplainable they can virtually do whatever they prefer.
Thus max. one club per country in ECL and best starting only with them from place 15 onwards and halving the points so nothing could be damaged.

That new UEFA qualification system, according to which the clubs of the Top 5 richest leagues no longer play qualifications, except for one PO ECL, was set up in order to protect France from Portugal, the Netherlands and similar smaller countries. The sixth and seventh-ranked countries must eliminate 5 opponents with 2 clubs, while fifth-ranked France must eliminate one opponent with one club. This is a huge advantage already at the start, I announced 2 years ago that France would completely detach itself from the escort in a couple of years. Likewise, with the irregular playing of the CL, Portuguese and Dutch clubs will weaken, because there will no longer be a huge inflow of UEFA money to the leading clubs, while the inflow of UEFA money to the French league will double.
We concluded a long time ago that everything UEFA does is in the interests of its owners, and we know who the owners and founders of UEFA are.

[Overgame]

You both should seriously touch some grass, take a deep breath, and think before positing.
1) Belgium was 17th in 2000, at that time the teams were almost always failing to qualify for CL. Then Anderlecht and Brugge became "group regulars", then regulary a 3rd team was able to join them. 2010s, change in EL, an extra european spot for the countries ranked 9th to 15th (and one less for 7th and 8th), Belgium joined the top 10 from 2014 to 2021. A terrible 17/18 campaign made them fall to 14th in 22, but as soon as that year disappeared, they climbed back to 8th (don't forget Russia's ban). So basically, you're using ONE single specific year to make a dumb argument. Belgium was 9th (behind Russia) before the introduction of ECL. Belgium is 8th (in front of Russia) after the introduction of ECL. What a big change (not).

2) Portugal was known for the yo-yo effect. From 2000 to 2023
10th - 10th - 9th - 7th - 6th - 6th - 6th - 6th - 8th - 10th - 9th - 6th - 5th - 5th - 5th - 5th - 7th - 7th - 7th - 6th - 6th - 6th - 7th
Why? Their teams outside the top 3 (then 4 when Braga/Sporting doesn't fail) are really terrible. This isn't a consequence of the ECL, this is a 25 years long trend.

3) Even without any change, the Netherlands failed their challenge against France (well this isn't over and next year could be their last chance). Why? AZ failed hard, Ajax was bad while french teams did well. UEFA gave extra spots to the fifth (probably France) for money issues, but not "protecting them". Coefficient wise Marseille scored more points than Lens and Feyenoord.

4) You both fail to understand that the UEFA ranking rewards the average strength of the league (at least the top 5/6) and not only the top 3. France is 5th because most of their teams in europe can pass the GS, while Portugal and the Netherlands cannot even put a fifth team in GS, at least on a regular basis.

5) Going to the ECJ? LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

[Club-Mate]

@overgame
Going to the ECJ?
What's that? one more lower league for Belgium to climb finally above Portugal?
well, that's not the point I meant. The fact simply is that a few nations get an advantage to collect their points in 'lower leagues' and finally overtake them with much less effort. It's like you make one single ranking of EPL, Championship and League One where Portsmouth suddenly is near top of it and Sheffield Utd last.
Btw make a comparison of clubs between Belgium with Austria say the last about 10 years. Austria will beat Belgium clearly in direct confrontations.

[Ed]

European matches between Belgian and Austrian clubs:

Code: Select all

2024	EL	g1	Union Saint-Gilloise	Bel	LASK Linz	Aut	2-1	0-3
2022	EL	g1	Rapid Wien		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	0-1	1-0
2021	EL	g1	Royal Antwerp		Bel	LASK Linz	Aut	0-1	2-0
2021	CL	q3	AA Gent			Bel	Rapid Wien	Aut	2-1	- (single leg because of COVID-19)
2020	CL	g1	FC Salzburg		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	6-2	4-1
2020	CL	q4	LASK Linz		Aut	Club Brugge	Bel	0-1	1-2
2019	EL	r2	Club Brugge		Bel	FC Salzburg	Aut	2-1	0-4
2018	EL	q3	AA Gent			Bel	SCR Altach	Aut	1-1	1-3
2017	EL	g1	Rapid Wien		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	3-2	0-1
2014	EL	g1	FC Salzburg		Aut	Standard Liège	Bel	2-1	3-1
2014	EL	g1	Racing Genk		Bel	Rapid Wien	Aut	1-1	2-2
2012	EL	g1	Sturm Graz		Aut	Anderlecht	Bel	0-2	0-3
2010	EL	r2	Standard Liège		Bel	FC Salzburg	Aut	3-2	0-0

BEL - AUT 11 - 4 - 10

I'd say the last 14 years both countries are very evenly matched. Would you like to reconsider your last remark, Club-Mate ?
And even if you would like to draw the line at 2014, then it's 8-3-10. Still balanced, in my opinion.

[Overgame]

@overgame
Going to the ECJ?

European Court of justice.

Btw make a comparison of clubs between Belgium with Austria say the last about 10 years. Austria will beat Belgium clearly in direct confrontations.

Lol. Of course when your teams not called FC Salzburg have issues passing a round, we only face them at their peak and barely face them.

LASK
19/20: Brugge 2 losses. CLPO
20/21: Antwerp 1 win 1 loss. Antwerp 2nd LASK 3rd
23/24: USG 1 win 1 loss. USG 3rd LASK 4th

Rapid
13/14: Genk 2 draws. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
16/17: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
20/21: Gent 1 loss. CLqR3.
21/22: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 4th.

Sturm Graz has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Austria has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Wolfsberger never met a belgian team.

Congratulations your 2nd and 3rd teams are similar to Belgium's 4th and 5th team. But eh, Rapid managed to elminate a belgian team once, they are clearly better right?

[Club-Mate]

European matches between Belgian and Austrian clubs:

Code: Select all

2024	EL	g1	Union Saint-Gilloise	Bel	LASK Linz	Aut	2-1	0-3
2022	EL	g1	Rapid Wien		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	0-1	1-0
2021	EL	g1	Royal Antwerp		Bel	LASK Linz	Aut	0-1	2-0
2021	CL	q3	AA Gent			Bel	Rapid Wien	Aut	2-1	- (single leg because of COVID-19)
2020	CL	g1	FC Salzburg		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	6-2	4-1
2020	CL	q4	LASK Linz		Aut	Club Brugge	Bel	0-1	1-2
2019	EL	r2	Club Brugge		Bel	FC Salzburg	Aut	2-1	0-4
2018	EL	q3	AA Gent			Bel	SCR Altach	Aut	1-1	1-3
2017	EL	g1	Rapid Wien		Aut	Racing Genk	Bel	3-2	0-1
2014	EL	g1	FC Salzburg		Aut	Standard Liège	Bel	2-1	3-1
2014	EL	g1	Racing Genk		Bel	Rapid Wien	Aut	1-1	2-2
2012	EL	g1	Sturm Graz		Aut	Anderlecht	Bel	0-2	0-3
2010	EL	r2	Standard Liège		Bel	FC Salzburg	Aut	3-2	0-0

BEL - AUT 11 - 4 - 10

I'd say the last 14 years both countries are very evenly matched. Would you like to reconsider your last remark, Club-Mate ?

@Ed thanks for these comprehensive stats! but I said "about last 10 years" 1010 and 1012 I did not consider in my calc so it's still 10-3-8 in favour AUT. In my calc I took GS matches plus this Rapid match against Genk away too because it was time closer. Yes when you go back more than 10 yrs the stats in favour BEL would improve I guess but I never checked this so far for me just the more recent past counts more. 10 years is enough to look back for a statement I would say.

[Ed]

I only wanted to give a bit more years in the overview than the past 10 because it shows clearly that, if you want to underline an argument, it does matter where you draw the line. In my book, in the 'recent past' Belgium and Austria in European matches are in the balance, and the numbers just don't underline your claim that Austria 'clearly beats Belgium' in that period of time.

[Club-Mate]

@overgame
Going to the ECJ?

European Court of justice.

Btw make a comparison of clubs between Belgium with Austria say the last about 10 years. Austria will beat Belgium clearly in direct confrontations.

Lol. Of course when your teams not called FC Salzburg have issues passing a round, we only face them at their peak and barely face them.

LASK
19/20: Brugge 2 losses. CLPO
20/21: Antwerp 1 win 1 loss. Antwerp 2nd LASK 3rd
23/24: USG 1 win 1 loss. USG 3rd LASK 4th

Rapid
13/14: Genk 2 draws. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
16/17: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
20/21: Gent 1 loss. CLqR3.
21/22: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 4th.

Sturm Graz has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Austria has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Wolfsberger never met a belgian team.

Congratulations your 2nd and 3rd teams are similar to Belgium's 4th and 5th team. But eh, Rapid managed to elminate a belgian team once, they are clearly better right?

you forgot Altach that eliminated Gent! . I would say AUT except Salzburg were not far away with Belgium ones with an advantage for Belgium but Salzburg left behind the Belgium clubs clearly 5-0-1 in favour Salzburg and a GD of 20:7 in six matches. Sorry when I have to say this it's "punching bag" stats. (min 5 losses in 6 matches (usually in a group stage) and > - 10 GD)
But let's count Ed's statistics ok?! 10-3-8 in favour AUT for the last 10 years if I counted correctly. But you can keep your own stats if you are happy with them. It's your good right!

[Overgame]

@overgame
Going to the ECJ?

European Court of justice.

Btw make a comparison of clubs between Belgium with Austria say the last about 10 years. Austria will beat Belgium clearly in direct confrontations.

Lol. Of course when your teams not called FC Salzburg have issues passing a round, we only face them at their peak and barely face them.

LASK
19/20: Brugge 2 losses. CLPO
20/21: Antwerp 1 win 1 loss. Antwerp 2nd LASK 3rd
23/24: USG 1 win 1 loss. USG 3rd LASK 4th

Rapid
13/14: Genk 2 draws. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
16/17: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 1st.
20/21: Gent 1 loss. CLqR3.
21/22: Genk 1 win 1 loss. Rapid 3rd Genk 4th.

Sturm Graz has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Austria has no game against belgian teams within the last 10 years.

Wolfsberger never met a belgian team.

Congratulations your 2nd and 3rd teams are similar to Belgium's 4th and 5th team. But eh, Rapid managed to elminate a belgian team once, they are clearly better right?

you forgot Altach that eliminated Gent! . I would say AUT except Salzburg were not far away with Belgium ones with an advantage for Belgium but Salzburg left behind the Belgium clubs clearly 5-0-1 in favour Salzburg and a GD of 20:7 in six matches. Sorry when I have to say this it's "punching bag" stats. (min 5 losses in 6 matches (usually in a group stage) and > - 10 GD)
But let's count Ed's statistics ok?! 10-3-8 in favour AUT for the last 10 years if I counted correctly. But you can keep your own stats if you are happy with them. It's your good right!

Sorry, hard to remember small teams getting a one of a kind result. Let's not forget that Lietchstenstein is clearly better than Austria XD