The Champions League format

[Polak]

Polak,
That’s not how things should be.

Things shouldn’t be, like you suggest, “let us get in and then we’ll get better”.
They must be “get better first and then you’ll get it”.

Do you really think that UEFA would sacrifice many CL editions (how many? 5? 10?) by replacing good teams by bad teams, hoping that the bad teams would become good?

It seem to me Dragonite that you think the big teams are big and always going the furthest because they are just simply better and that is it.

I disagree. I think the teams who are big had to earn the reputation of being a big team and some stage, it is true. Now that we have a big teams though the system is made in such a way to keep them big because they can generate a lot of money. It is kind of a feed the rich and do not feed the poor system. The big teams get stronger while the not so big teams now find it difficult to try to 'prove themselves' as the big teams are at a clear advantage.

[og2002gr]

Things shouldn’t be, like you suggest, “let us get in and then we’ll get better”.
They must be “get better first and then you’ll get it”.

How it is possible for a team to improve, over another team, that each year earns at least 20 millions from Champions League?

[Legionista]

Well I already said what I wanted to say in this topic. I would still preffer to watch matches between domestic champions like Dynamo - Steaua, Steaua - Slavia Prague instead of Atletico - Chelsea or Liverpool - Fiorentina. Dragonite do not want to watch Steaua - Slavia because of lower level of the competition, I do not want to watch Liverpool-Fiorentina because it is boring to me watching this kind of games year after year.

About money issue - Cirdian wrote that champions league money will not reduce a distance between Western giants and Eastern top clubs, of course I agree with him here, but those money will let for example Partizan or Dinamo Z. to keep their good players and build a team for years, because presently they are forced to sell all players, who know how to play football, to the middle-table western clubs, otherwise they would have not enough money to maintain the club. I will be very happy if Partizan and Dinamo would become the second Dynamo Kyiv - club which sell world class players to the West ( Shevchenko) but is able to keep good players from its country in the team (Aliev, Milevsky, Bogush).

[Dragonite]

Well I already said what I wanted to say in this topic. I would still preffer to watch matches between domestic champions like Dynamo - Steaua, Steaua - Slavia Prague instead of Atletico - Chelsea or Liverpool - Fiorentina. Dragonite do not want to watch Steaua - Slavia because of lower level of the competition, I do not want to watch Liverpool-Fiorentina because it is boring to me watching this kind of games year after year.

How could you be bored with Liverpool vs. Fiorentina if it never happened before?!!?
And this clash particularly had something that you guys should love- the smaller team prevailed.

It’s not that I don’t want to watch Steaua vs. Slavia. I have nothing against these teams. I just want the best European teams in the CL. If these 2, or one of them, happens to be one of the best European teams, they’re welcomed.
Actually (and they can correct me if I’m wrong) the most interested people in not having Steaua in the CL anymore are Steaua’s own fans!
After 3 CL participations where the results only got worse, after 17 consecutive games without a single win, I don’t think that they’re interested.

Things shouldn’t be, like you suggest, “let us get in and then we’ll get better”.
They must be “get better first and then you’ll get it”.

How it is possible for a team to improve, over another team, that each year earns at least 20 millions from Champions League?

It is possible.

--> Benfica missed 6 CL editions from 1999/2000 to 2004/2005, and that hasn’t prevented them from assembling a great team (Quim, Nélson, Luisão, Anderson, Léo, Petit, Manuel Fernandes, Karagounis, Geovanni, Simão, Nuno Gomes, Miccoli, etc...) and reaching the CL quarter finals in 2005/2006 by eliminating Manchester United and Liverpool.
--> Villarreal, in their CL debut, also in 2005/2006, reached the CL semi finals.

I think I’m wasting my time searching for examples.

Many people simply prefer to accept the “fairy tale” that their teams would be so good if it wasn’t for the “evil Western Europeans” who force them to release their magnificent players and so on.
You should sell this story to Disney, really. But first, you’ll need to find a happy ending.

[Legionista]

How could you be bored with Liverpool vs. Fiorentina if it never happened before?!!?
And this clash particularly had something that you guys should love- the smaller team prevailed.

I wrote "this kind of matches" What did I mean my those words? Matches between non-champions from same countries ENG-ITA-ESP, as I said before, I want to watch real CHAMPIONS LEAGUE with more domestic champions, depite the fact that level of the competition would be lower.

[dzomba]

It’s not that I don’t want to watch Steaua vs. Slavia. I have nothing against these teams. I just want the best European teams in the CL. If these 2, or one of them, happens to be one of the best European teams, they’re welcomed.

The key question is how to become the best ?

Point is that it's not equally easy / hard to become strong for different teams.

Problem is that it's geographically decided ...


The best clubs should be those who have the best organization, the best management, the best fanbase, the best youth academy, etc ...

Problem is that in reality it's not like that.
Problem is that there are many additional barriers for some teams. There is a discrimination.


Perfect society should include solidarity. There is no solidarity in European football these days.

EU legislation is a huge problem. It disables individual solutions which could be easily implemented by each country, and offers no solution in return, because current situation suits powerfull just fine ...


I want all teams to be in equal starting position. In that case, let the best win, whoever it is. But if not all teams are in equal starting position, then external regulation should be applied, to reduce handicap.

[dzomba]

PS

I do not want all teams to be equally rich. No.

But i want every domestic champion to be rich enough to be able to keep half (5) of their respective national team players in it's squad. Until that's fulfilled, i won't be happy.

Until that is reached, those clubs should be protected somehow ...

[og2002gr]

It is possible.

--> Benfica missed 6 CL editions from 1999/2000 to 2004/2005, and that hasn’t prevented them from assembling a great team (Quim, Nélson, Luisão, Anderson, Léo, Petit, Manuel Fernandes, Karagounis, Geovanni, Simão, Nuno Gomes, Miccoli, etc...) and reaching the CL quarter finals in 2005/2006 by eliminating Manchester United and Liverpool.
--> Villarreal, in their CL debut, also in 2005/2006, reached the CL semi finals.

These examples are the exceptions. Not the rule. You see such phenomenon once in 5 years.

I think I’m wasting my time searching for examples

Thank you. You save a lot of my time, answering with multiple examples

Many people simply prefer to accept the “fairy tale” that their teams would be so good if it wasn’t for the “evil Western Europeans” who force them to release their magnificent players and so on.
You should sell this story to Disney, really. But first, you’ll need to find a happy ending.

I dont care about fairy tales and evil Western Europeans.
I love watching giants in the finals!
But I would prefer to watch battles between champions in the group stage (just like Group F this year), instead of Seville vs Stuttgart.

I dont agree with a close league of 5 countries giving the 56% of all the teams.

[dzomba]

PS 2

Dragonite, i have nothing against if there will be 10 English teams in CL, and all Englishmen in CL quarters, but only if all their teams will consist of English players !

[Dragonite]

It is possible.

--> Benfica missed 6 CL editions from 1999/2000 to 2004/2005, and that hasn’t prevented them from assembling a great team (Quim, Nélson, Luisão, Anderson, Léo, Petit, Manuel Fernandes, Karagounis, Geovanni, Simão, Nuno Gomes, Miccoli, etc...) and reaching the CL quarter finals in 2005/2006 by eliminating Manchester United and Liverpool.
--> Villarreal, in their CL debut, also in 2005/2006, reached the CL semi finals.

These examples are the exceptions. Not the rule. You see such phenomenon once in 5 years.

In case you don’t know, to prove that something is FALSE, all you need is ONE counter-example.
I gave you one example, Benfica 2005/2006. Q.E.D.

The second example, Villarreal, was just a bonus, it wasn’t really necessary.

You can give me 1000 examples of failures, and it still doesn’t demonstrate that it’s impossible.
All I have to do is giving you 1 successful case, to demonstrate that it’s possible. Sorry, man, my job is a lot easier than yours.


But if you really insist, here are more examples:
--> Atletico Madrid 2008/2009 (missed 11 CL editions and when they returned they reached the KO stages, and left the competition undefeated).
--> Celta de Vigo and Real Sociedad 2003/2004 (CL debut for both, both reached the KO stages)
--> Deportivo 2000/2001 (first ever CL participation, reached the CL quarters… and did the same in the following season)
--> Sevilla 2007/2008 (CL debut, reached the KO stages)
--> Valencia 1999/2000 (first ever participation, beaten finalist… and did the same in the following season)
--> Ajax & Inter 2002/2003 (both missed the previous 3 CL editions, and Ajax reached the quarter finals, while Inter reached the semi finals)
--> Leeds United 2000/2001 (CL debut, semi finalist)
--> Lazio 1999/2000 (CL debut, quarter finalist)
--> Basel 2002/2003 (CL debut, reached the CL 2nd round group stage… it would have been the KO stages if it was 1 year later)


I already gave you more than 10 examples in the last 10 seasons. You still think it happens once every 5 years?!!?

[og2002gr]

ΟΚ, you misunderstood my point.

I dont want an example with a team having a single or two great seasons, over the 13 years of CL.
That's quite possible, as there are hundreds teams, for 5-6 positions in the KO each year.
I have my own example for this: my team, Panathinaikos, last year.

My question is, how it is possible for the same one team, to overpass a "giant", without earning those 20 millions each year.
Not having a better season, but overpassing the "giant"!

[Dragonite]

ΟΚ, you misunderstood my point.

I dont want an example with a team having a single or two great seasons, over the 13 years of CL.
That's quite possible, as there are hundreds teams, for 5-6 positions in the KO each year.
I have my own example for this: my team, Panathinaikos, last year.

My question is, how it is possible for the same one team, to overpass a "giant", without earning those 20 millions each year.
Not having a better season, but overpassing the "giant"!

I do not understand your question, man.
I said that teams should get better first, and then enter the CL.
Then you asked how it is possible to get better first, without the 20 millions from CL.
Well...
There are many ways to get 20 million €, besides playing the CL. You can sell a player, you can get a loan from a bank, you can win the lottery, etc…
Plus, who said you need 20 millions to get better?

Then, if that team gets better first, and then enters the CL, once they’re in they’re getting the 20 millions too, right?
Actually, the further they go, the more they get, right?
Debrecen just qualified to the CL but then lost the 6 games. They don’t get 20 millions just for qualifying, do they?
If Fiorentina & Lyon qualify to the next stage, and Liverpool doesn’t, then Liverpool doesn’t get as much as them, right?


If you have regularly better results than a “giant” (that’s what you mean by “overpass”, right?) then one of two things happen: either you’re a giant too, or the other team isn’t.

Point is that it's not equally easy / hard to become strong for different teams.

Problem is that it's geographically decided ...

dzomba,

Your demands are very complicated.
Different teams will always be different. Like I usually say, each team is unique.
If Lyon is richer than Lens (Lens has many additional barriers, like you say), it happens for a reason, right? Lyon is richer because in the last 10-15 years or so Lyon “did the right things”, while Lens “did (some) wrong things”, right?

It is NOT geographically decided. There are bad teams in Western Europe, and there are good teams in Eastern Europe (CSKA, Zenit, Rubin, Shakhtar, Dynamo Kiev, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Fenerbahçe, etc…).

PS

I do not want all teams to be equally rich. No.

But i want every domestic champion to be rich enough to be able to keep half (5) of their respective national team players in it's squad. Until that's fulfilled, i won't be happy.

Until that is reached, those clubs should be protected somehow ...

Inter, the Italian champion, hasn’t 5 Italian NT players in their squad. That means Inter should be helped?
If they don’t have them, is because they don’t want to.

I think what you wanted to say was something like “every country should have half of its best players playing in its own league.”

[dzomba]

I think Lens doesn't have barriers compared to Lyon. Lyon is simply better, better club, better organized club.
I do not look how many money they have, how many they earned or spent. I look at how many players they produced. Lyon produced much more high-quality players, while i do not remember any from Lens (well, i'm not that good informed about Lens). That is enough for me to perceive Lyon as simply better, and their domination as fair and deserved.

I perceive Barcelona's successes as deserved too, because they also developed bigger part of their squad, and bought the smaller part.

Porto's domination is also fair, and deserved.


Contrary, Real's domination is not fair, because they didn't created many high-quality players. Neither Inter did, neither Chelsea.

Manchester, Liverpool, Milan, Juventus, Bayern, are in the middle between those extremes.


I (want to) watch football to see who is better (Mourinho or Ancelotti, Etto or Drogba), not who is richer (Moratti or Abramovich, Glazer or Hicks).

Problem is that clubs which develop football game by producing players, do not benefit ENOUGH from it. There should be additional fees, going to academy clubs.


Football should be oriented to producing, not to spending. Producers should be the most successful. It's too easy to steal players today.


EU birocracy / Uefa should allow to national associations to make independant, individual measures, to protect themselves, with all responsibility it carries on themselves.



When i mentioned 5 NT players in champion teams, that's only for teams who cannot keep produced players. Inter is not in that category. Inter can afford even better.
Not so many (half, as you said) players should play in domestic league, but some of them should. Problem is that today in many, many countries NONE of them play at home !

[Polak]

When is the last time a team who was not from a top league [top 8 or 10 leagues] or was not rich, got to the final of a CL? The reason clubs as Dynamo Kiev or Shakhtar have had succes previously is money and they are a lot better than the rest of their league due to the big money advantage.

As for teams having a lot of ways to get money as selling their players. Unfortunately a team that is in a weak league is going to get 10 times less for a player that a team in a strong league would get. Of course it can be done and occasionally a weak team can get strong and break in to the top but it is rare and generally for a team to break in a money investment is the cause, not always, but often. Usually it is the same big teams playing each other in the CL on a regular basis.

[krasste]

First Id like to say that this is an awesome discussion
I just drink a cup of coffee and read the whole thread. Both of the sides have reasonable arguments and Im not yet sure where my position in this whole thing is. Its really complex.
Therefore Ill just add my tow penny worth on some of the statements.

It's a shame when a world-class player, as Toni, is forced to play 3rd level league matches ...

It's a shame when world-class players which are not even at the bench of Real or Barca, cannot leave whenever they want ...

Toni was injured and had to gain some match experience. Its quite usual at Bayern to start in the 2nd team (I think Scholl spent there most of his time in his last 1-2years as he had many physical problems). A team needs more then 2 good strikers and when they are all fit, one or two of them cannot play. And especially Toni must be physically at 100%. I dont see any problem in that.

The Real or Barca case isnt that different. Lets take Hleb as example. I have no clue why he chose Barca. Even a blind saw theres no place for him in the first team. But still they paid good money for him, just Real did for the ones like Van der Vaart. Why should they be allowed to leave?! It was their own decision to join these teams even if the chance to watch most of the games as a spectator was quite a good one.
And having said that, may other players leave whenever they want to?
You pointed out that you want more regulations, just as I do (salary cap, debt regulations) with real punishments. But I want contracts to be respected (no Webster or similar stuff). So if somebody prefers to be the 26th man for Barca because he likes the city over playing for another team, its their decision.

but those money [CL money] will let for example Partizan or Dinamo Z. to keep their good players and build a team for years, because presently they are forced to sell all players, who know how to play football, to the middle-table western clubs, otherwise they would have not enough money to maintain the club.

you sure? From season 2007/2008 Dinamo Zagreb got like 60.000.000€ by selling players (Lovren, Vukojevic, Modric, Eduardo, Corluka). Where is this money?! They manage to sell their players really expensive and I wonder what they have done with it? Its a little bit too much for just maintaining the club.

Unfortunately a team that is in a weak league is going to get 10 times less for a player that a team in a strong league would get

That doesnt appeal to all clubs as mentioned above.

But i want every domestic champion to be rich enough to be able to keep half (5) of their respective national team players in it's squad. Until that's fulfilled, i won't be happy.

I think many eastern european teams can do this. Problems may have especially the player exporting countries as Croatia, Serbia etc.
But still this is not enough to compete with the best and thats the problem. But actually I have no idea how to solve this.