Downfall of Portuguese football League

[Dragonite]

Of course they are. 6 vs. 4 (with a different penalty shootout outcome it could have been 5 vs. 5), and the NT won 1 Euro while Portugal never did it.

Just like Holland is one of the big ones historically, so is Portugal.
They are the only ones alongside Spain, England, Germany and Italy that won the CL more than once, and also with more than one team, and in at least three different decades.

But TODAY, Holland doesn’t hang out with the rest of the “big 5” anymore, they’ll be visiting places #12-14, and the NT won’t be playing Euro 2016 because they weren’t good enough to eliminate one of Iceland, Czech Republic or Turkey.


This is the only thing that matters, RESULTS, not GDP, not attendances, not population.

You can simply import 17 foreigners, so it doesn’t really matter if the country where a team is from is producing talented players or not.

Everybody has the same opportunity to import the 17 foreigners, and if they don’t, it’s a self-imposed limitation (Athletic Bilbao, Russia…). Nobody has any advantage/disadvantage here.

This country battle is fought by each nation’s top teams; it doesn’t really matter if your 10th team is almost as good as your top teams or a lot worse. Only the top teams matter.


The same applies for players, only the top 30 matter, it’s irrelevant if #31 is almost as good as #30 or a lot worse.
NT squads only need 23 players.

[ruicosta]

Duketown,

Your country stole from us Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malasia, Ghana and tried to steal Angola, and now you want to destroy our top clubs too?

Never!!!!

I would advise you to take some Rennie, it helps easing the heartburn and indigestion. It's just football.

[Duketown]

Duketown,

Your country stole from us Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malasia, Ghana and tried to steal Angola, and now you want to destroy our top clubs too?

Never!!!!

I would advise you to take some Rennie, it helps easing the heartburn and indigestion. It's just football.

Nice one!

It indeed is a good comparison with football:
Colonial times vs. pre-FFP football.

Portugal will follow the same trend: From a mighty sea-nation to a debt-based economy. Also making the same mistake: Choosing short-term results instead of long-term success.

Now, once again Portugal will fall due to TPO; this time in football. So I propose Ouroboros to be your new national symbol. Only on a nice beach with a beautiful sea at the background. Maybe a sinking galion in the background for some extra drama.

If Portugal, after Bosman, choose to build a solid competition instead of giving all national advantages to top 3, things would be better now. Now, top 3 has €1 billion of debt and zero potential (except TPO), competition is worse shape than i.e. Poland or Scotland. Yes that debt is highest among Europe: more than 3 times League turnover. And for what? Some quarter finals?

If it makes you feel any better: Some bigger countries "stole" those countries in their turn from us. However, our production mentality keeps us going while your consumption mentality brings you down on your knees. Maybe Spain can adopt your top 3 and then close down that Mickey Mouse League.

Checkout the UEFA announcements on the 1st of May and see this trend continue. Sorry to be the messenger but the only one guilty is.... Portugal!

[Thunder_PT]

You know, justified or not, this could at least be a good and interesting thread. But unfortunately, and people who have been on this forum longer know I'm not one to say things like this, you're in way over your head and have no idea what we're talking about. The longer this thread goes the more difficult it is to take you seriously. Your last post... Again, it's so ludicrous I even think I'm just wasting my time answering as you're so invested in your opinion that facts and logic don't even matter anymore. I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but the Polish and Scottish leagues are better than the Portuguese? Even Polish or Scottish people wouldn't say that! I wonder why BT Sports in England or beIN sports in France bought the rights to show the Portuguese league and not the Polish league. But you'll ignore this, like you ignored the long post I didn't want to spend time writing but unfortunately got carried away... You'll ignore everything that doesn't support your belief, which I repeat is just wishful thinking.

Again, this could be a good thread and I contributed more than I had time to, but what's been said proves that there's no point in debating with someone who'll just repeat himself and ignore all the good points made against his views. So I guess I'm out.

[Duketown]

I bring:
1> Actual debts from annual reports
2> Give context to TPO, with lot's of facts you ignore.
3> Give context to FFP, with lot's of facts you ignore.
4> Explain Portugal's success since Bosman, and the price it costs.
5> I quote reliable sources, which clearly shows Portugal is an overperforming Mickey Mouse League in Europe.

Must stuff I say is backed up by UEFA/FIFA (and all it's member organisations), FIFPRO (all the players!), democratic EU. Even the EU Court for Appeal (with all it's data) bans TPO. This is 99.9% of Europe and I'm discussing this with some 0.1% in this topic. Some fans who think everybody in the world is stupid and they know better than those occupied with dealing with those matters. Ofc, exact implications are still unkown but you even ignore current reality. But Portugal is not the first country to experience this; you simple can study some other clubs. Yet, you still refuse to read or understand.

But what did you bring, except all your repeating rambling about some non-relevant matters? Not to mention all the nonsense I already debunked. Can you show me a reliable sources which states anything contrary to my statements around above subjects? What makes you believe Portugal will be no. 5-7 forever? Why do you think nothing will change? We you keep ignoring reality? Please do bring in something good, since I'm bored discussing the same over and over. Some facts instead of pulling all that nonsense from behind your ears. And if you do: try to keep the Netherlands out of it, try fact check your sources. ah, whatever, you can't.

And last thing:
A healthy competition is a competition with some topclubs, some subtopclubs and a strong rest of the Division: everybody challenged at it own level. You can read research about this subject in any language, based on any sport. It even works like that in Economic markets. This is clearly not the case in Portugal. So this already debunked 50% of all the nonsense you say, then everything related to TPO is a blackhole for you and you don't understand finance or FFP. Let alone, interpret all this info. to draw some realistic conclusions. Yes, you are in the wrong topic since I use those conclusions to have a simple prediction. It's no rocket-science; just common sense.

Some new statements:
1> Portuguese clubs will only manages to survive CL groupstage just once in coming 5 years;
2> Portuguese clubs will only manages to reach EL 1/4 finals just 3x in coming 5 years;

[Thunder_PT]

Dude, you're obsessed with the supposed downfall of everyone.

..

Is this all wishful thinking? Hoping Portugal, Russia, Ukraine and Turkey all go down so the Netherlands have an open road to the top 6? Won't work like that.

You are uneducated.

This right here is enough for me to not address you again. You have no idea who I am so at least have some respect.

Like I said, I have no interest in continuing this argument as the points I've made were ignored and you insist in saying the same things over and over despite the counter-arguments. Namely:

- You insist in calling debt to liability. Please read something about accounting basics. If you don't understand it, don't talk about it. Portuguese clubs are fine!

- You keep thinking the end of TPO will massively affect Portugal when I've explained it really won't. It doesn't matter, everybody else is more concerned about it than us, TPO is barely talked about in Portugal.

And then you say uefa and fifpro are your sources, but you're basically just name dropping as I doubt very much that's where you got the idea that the Polish and the Scottish leagues are better than the Portuguese. Again, if that's true, I wonder how is it that I could go to any bar here in France and ask them to show a Portuguese league match on French TV, but not a Polish one.

Note that I never talked about the Dutch league.

"Some new statements:
1> Portuguese clubs will only manages to survive CL groupstage just once in coming 5 years;
2> Portuguese clubs will only manages to reach EL 1/4 finals just 3x in coming 5 years;"

See, I like that. I disagree, thread closed, we'll reopen it in 5 years. 2 different Portuguese teams reach the CL quarters in consecutive years but suddenly we'd only see one in the round of 16 in 5 years? Bold prediction, nothing more to discuss until we have the results.

[Duketown]

Dude, you're obsessed with the supposed downfall of everyone.

..

Is this all wishful thinking? Hoping Portugal, Russia, Ukraine and Turkey all go down so the Netherlands have an open road to the top 6? Won't work like that.

You are uneducated.

This right here is enough for me to not address you again. You have no idea who I am so at least have some respect.

You call me obsessed and use a lie (downfall of everyone) to make your point. So you already lost me before I even called you anything. Then you ignore all good arguments and continues rambling nonsense. Can't you see all clubs being punished by UEFA; I even posted them with a nice image. I simply call that uneducated. And debt/liabilty detail is in your favor but it doesn't contribute to this discussion. But I don't need any accounting study; I'm already Master in Business Administration. I have no problem interpreting annual reports. Besides, I have been watching the FFP fight all my life; not just last few years.

Already in your first reply you bring in The Netherlands. First I try to ignore that but when I bring in The Netherland in top 8, you react like a hurt animal.
FIFPRO, the players, is a source which tells you how bad TPO is. You know better than the ones subjected to this phenomena?
UEFA backs me up on all subjects, except predictions about the future. They just provide the data which anyone can interpret.
TPO will hurt Portugal, bit by bit. But it's the combination with mickey mouse league, TPO, FPP, debts which made me make this topic.

Why I don't feel sorry for you? You don't read and you ignore any discussion. Instead of usable replies you're only pushing your fan-tastic agenda totally missing out on good arguments and statistics.

Ignored:
You continue trumping TPO is just some investment while I clearly state it's impossible to keep all investors out of football in my 1st post. But that's not even the point...
Players should be free; not shady traffickers.
TPO drains football and money vanish in tin air.
today, betting-companies can own players
TPO-case of Twente (1st of his kind)
You continue to ignore that this already is happening for 10 years but obvious it wasn't close enough for you.

False assumptions:
- teams don't need fans in their stadiums (even ngfsmg admits this is a problem);
- topclubs don't need a solid and healthy competition;
- influx of South American players doesn't add to Portuguese results.
- FIFA/UEFA is run by Germans and Dutch. Preferably to attack Portugal.
- debts don't need to repaid (I'm not just talking tax and transfer debts!)
- Mis-management didn't hurt local and EU community.
- you state Doyen is a tool while it is the consequence of mismangement. You even thinks this is an insurance, lol.

All this while it's as simple as 1+1 is for the other 99.9%.

I've seen clubs rise and fall and now Porto en Benfica show all signs to fall. Maybe even fall hard, just partly owning players, huge stadium payments, which are only half full and huge debts are a cocktail for deterioration. All this in a mickey-mouse league. Current successful transfer model can change in a huge lose any season since Portugal lacks all other turnover. Matchday revenue, TV money and commercial revenue will give those top 3 maximum budget of €65 million (and €85 with CL). Transfer bring in the rest so this is a dangerous business model for a football club with debts. Once quality goes down, UEFA prize money will go down as well and subsequently sponsors-deals will be smaller. TV deal is relatively large so relative growth will be below zero for years to come. In the meanwhile UEFA forces you to keep paying your debts, competition isn't get any better and the once successful transfermodel might even be endangered. Eat. sleep, digest, repeat. This spiral will bring Portugal down rather sooner than later.

There is a reason why Portugal WAS over-performing since 2003 and that is money. Portuguese club success in last 10 years is at the expense of €1 billion debt (arisen from the moment other countries and other clubs choose to remain debtfree) while being fuelled with TPO transfer money. In this world you need to pay your bills or they come for you.. At first only Doyen but after that they come collect transferfees, taxes, stadium rent and all other vaporized money which builds up those debts. You do understand the concept of debt-collection, do you?

All in all, you continue to make a fool of yourself.

Ps. You want to be educated? Split Portuguese debts in short term (contains TPO) and longterm. Then split longterm in stadium and rest. Then we discuss liability vs. debts. I can tell you now that once current assets (just players) are dried, there is nothing left. Then what?

[AnelZ]

The only thing that I dislike about this discussion is that one thing is repeated over and over again, just formulated a bit different. You gave your points, the other side gave their points. No one is willing to back up from it, discussion over. Not this non-sense. TPO and FFP will not be the turning point in European football as they are gradually implemented for the exact reason for leagues not to suffer a lot from it. I'm quite sure all the league will adapt to it quite easily

[Duketown]

The only thing that I dislike about this discussion is that one thing is repeated over and over again, just formulated a bit different. You gave your points, the other side gave their points. No one is willing to back up from it, discussion over. Not this non-sense. TPO and FFP will not be the turning point in European football as they are gradually implemented for the exact reason for leagues not to suffer a lot from it. I'm quite sure all the league will adapt to it quite easily

Glad to see some common sense in this topic

Neither I believe FFP and TPO will turn EU football upside down just overnight. Only Portugal's outlook is terrible. They are really lucky Russia, Turkey, ukraine and The Netherlands all have problems of their own so they will not fall really hard coming 5 years. Still, that Mickey Mouse League remains broken so while I see those other countries recover, not the same for Portugal since they have nothing but debts and history. 1 tiny problem can bring down a topclub in Portugal. And there are many problems just around the corner and they don't come by themselves.

[MrMourinho]

There is a reason why Portugal WAS over-performing since 2003 and that is money.

False. Your basic premise is false from the start. The main reason is me.

[Duketown]

Talking about downfalls.. nice timing, Mourinho...

[bugylibicska]

The best coach in the world is John Carver, period. Now we`ve learned who`s the 2nd best!

[greenbay]

To keep it simple. There is no downfall of Portugese football. Not the league teams. Not the national team. In relative position, Portugese football has been in the past and is now atm, tier II in Europe. They have less clubs than La Liga, Bundesliga, Premier League and Serie A with i.e. CL R16 potential, but more than every other European league. They haven't won any WC/Euro but are always a side to be seriously considered for a SF appearance. Now and in the past decades.Tier II. Not more. Not less.

[Dragonite]

Topic synopsis:
Extremely jealous Dutch fan, in denial with the current state of football in his country, fast forwards to 2026 (Marty McFly style, in a DeLorean?) where he believes that things will have improved by then
Tags: Comedy, Fiction, Crime, Political, (Post-)Apocalyptic, Time Travel, Sports (?)

[Dragonite]

You know, justified or not, this could at least be a good and interesting thread. But unfortunately, and people who have been on this forum longer know I'm not one to say things like this, you're in way over your head and have no idea what we're talking about. The longer this thread goes the more difficult it is to take you seriously. Your last post... Again, it's so ludicrous I even think I'm just wasting my time answering as you're so invested in your opinion that facts and logic don't even matter anymore. I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but the Polish and Scottish leagues are better than the Portuguese? Even Polish or Scottish people wouldn't say that! I wonder why BT Sports in England or beIN sports in France bought the rights to show the Portuguese league and not the Polish league. But you'll ignore this, like you ignored the long post I didn't want to spend time writing but unfortunately got carried away... You'll ignore everything that doesn't support your belief, which I repeat is just wishful thinking.

Again, this could be a good thread and I contributed more than I had time to, but what's been said proves that there's no point in debating with someone who'll just repeat himself and ignore all the good points made against his views. So I guess I'm out.

Yes, I agree with you, this could be an awesome topic, and it may be ruined by a fanatic.

While he is just wishing that country A will raise and country B (C, D, E, F… Z) will fall, I have no problem with that.
Everybody has the right to like and dislike any team/player/coach/etc. they want to.

The problem is the extremism, is wanting to “win” at any cost, creating endless lies about those he dislikes, running away from the uncomfortable questions, and explaining many of the questions he doesn’t run away from with childish answers, like:
Iceland (300.000 people) above Holland (17.000.000) because of “disagreements” between two or three guys!!?!

The theories are so flawed that I’m taking this as comedy.

I advise you to do the same, don’t reply with serious answers like before to statements that should be considered humorous.