Nice observation, Francisco. And I agree mostly with what you said, except for the last part where you say that it "unfortunately (will) be the future of CL". A full and open European pyramid of football leagues, with "fair" promotion/relegation rules, is not that bad in the end. But it's still a long way from now.
In my view the real danger is a closed form of a European league that will be completely dominated by money.
CL reform for the 2018-2021 cycle
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bert.kassies
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Yes, sharp view.
It makes clear in which direction we're going. a European league where teams don't play domestically anymore. The current amount of money the English PL is generating still holds that off for now (not just the opposition of the smaller leagues).
I wonder how this league system with promotion and relegation will work regionally. I suppose at the level you go from regional to european there will be european play-off matches between regional winners for a spot at the european level.
Will it stay a bit balanced or will there soon be just top-4/top-7 teams in the top-league. Like in Germany after East and West joined, the leagues joined with teams from both sides, but soon only western teams were left in the Bundesliga......
It makes clear in which direction we're going. a European league where teams don't play domestically anymore. The current amount of money the English PL is generating still holds that off for now (not just the opposition of the smaller leagues).
I wonder how this league system with promotion and relegation will work regionally. I suppose at the level you go from regional to european there will be european play-off matches between regional winners for a spot at the european level.
Will it stay a bit balanced or will there soon be just top-4/top-7 teams in the top-league. Like in Germany after East and West joined, the leagues joined with teams from both sides, but soon only western teams were left in the Bundesliga......
I said "unfortunately" because of the last statement you made. The temptation for a close league will be there.bert.kassies wrote:Nice observation, Francisco. And I agree mostly with what you said, except for the last part where you say that it "unfortunately (will) be the future of CL". A full and open European pyramid of football leagues, with "fair" promotion/relegation rules, is not that bad in the end. But it's still a long way from now.
In my view the real danger is a closed form of a European league that will be completely dominated by money.
Even in an open League money will be the driver, but usually that's how it is. So no news there ...
the solution would be to make the Europa League become the "second division" of the Champions League (what it really is currently promotion system excluded).Ricardo wrote: I wonder how this league system with promotion and relegation will work regionally.
You could imagine a solution like this:
CL --> 32 teams, 8 groups of 4.
The best two advance to the KO rounds as it is today
The group 3rds are eliminated but keep their spot for the next CL
The group 4th are relegated and replaced the following season by the 8 quarter-finalists of the EL (or alternatively the 4 EL semi-finalists + 4 "best" domestic champions not already qualified for the next CL; or second alternative the EL winner + the 7 best champions not already qualified for the next CL)
by "best" champions, I mean champions of the best nations as per the UEFA ranking
In the 3 Europa League, 3 teams qualified per nation (excluding teams qualified for the Champions League of course).
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
What is not clear for me :
- Is it Spain, Germany, England and Italy who will have 4 automatic CL_GS teams, or is it "the first 4 rankend".
Yes, until 2019/20, or even 2020/21 this should be the same, but...in case of not??????? what will happen?
...and if after 21, thes will "maintain" this system, will it always be the same 4 (who were ranked 1 to 4 in 2015) or will it always be the 4 best ranked? (cause in the 2021 ranking, presently France leads Italy)
- Is it Spain, Germany, England and Italy who will have 4 automatic CL_GS teams, or is it "the first 4 rankend".
Yes, until 2019/20, or even 2020/21 this should be the same, but...in case of not??????? what will happen?
...and if after 21, thes will "maintain" this system, will it always be the same 4 (who were ranked 1 to 4 in 2015) or will it always be the 4 best ranked? (cause in the 2021 ranking, presently France leads Italy)
It is countries ranked 1-4.Malko wrote:What is not clear for me :
- Is it Spain, Germany, England and Italy who will have 4 automatic CL_GS teams, or is it "the first 4 rankend".
...okay, that seems to be a little more correct.
Let0s say that countries like France, portugal, Russia.....also win by this system. they cannot meet spanish, english or italian teams in the 4th QR anymore.
Let0s say that countries like France, portugal, Russia.....also win by this system. they cannot meet spanish, english or italian teams in the 4th QR anymore.
Euroleague Basketball came into my mind...
This competition is constantly evolving...from groupstage to double groupstage to a normal league of 16 teams playing double round robin plus play-offs.
Certain teams with certain licenses no matter what, and some empty spots for certain winners of other competitions.
Variety of teams is scandalously low, but no one cares.
Almost all games are highly competitive and there is a great balance of surprises and "best team wins".
It would be a bad turn to include champions of ex. England (or other leagues where basketball is underdeveloped), since most games would end with 30points differences.
Maybe it is different sports with diferrent culture, but sports evolution lead to "all star games" rather than equality distribution.
This competition is constantly evolving...from groupstage to double groupstage to a normal league of 16 teams playing double round robin plus play-offs.
Certain teams with certain licenses no matter what, and some empty spots for certain winners of other competitions.
Variety of teams is scandalously low, but no one cares.
Almost all games are highly competitive and there is a great balance of surprises and "best team wins".
It would be a bad turn to include champions of ex. England (or other leagues where basketball is underdeveloped), since most games would end with 30points differences.
Maybe it is different sports with diferrent culture, but sports evolution lead to "all star games" rather than equality distribution.
fewer spots 
weaker leagues fewer spots weaker leagues fewer spots weaker leagues
http://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 52#p359852
weaker leagues fewer spots weaker leagues fewer spots weaker leagueshttp://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum2/viewtop ... 52#p359852
@Lyonnais, I ment at the time the CL teams won't play regionally anymore, there won't be a promotion of 'best champions' into CL, just 4 from the Europa League. I'm not sure if Europa League will also be a fulltime league (no time for domestic league) or if it will be a level below that.
Will there still be european matches like now the whole year through of which some winners will qualify for the fulltime league. Or will teams only play domestically and have play-off in the end between domestic champions who will go to the fulltime european level.
And on which days will the Champions League play, if they have become a closed fulltim league? Why play mid-weeks and have the weekend off? I guess they could move to the weekends. But that would hurt domestic leagues. And besides. Only 34 matches a season? these clubs will have plenty of time.
Will there still be european matches like now the whole year through of which some winners will qualify for the fulltime league. Or will teams only play domestically and have play-off in the end between domestic champions who will go to the fulltime european level.
And on which days will the Champions League play, if they have become a closed fulltim league? Why play mid-weeks and have the weekend off? I guess they could move to the weekends. But that would hurt domestic leagues. And besides. Only 34 matches a season? these clubs will have plenty of time.
A full-time CL ....will be the dead of the national leagues....Imagine a PL without Manchester U and C Chelsea, Liverpool and arsenal, a Bundesliga without bayern and Dortmund, a Ligue 1 without Paris, Monaco and Lyon , a Liga without Barcelona, Real and atletico, a serie A without Juve, the Milan clubs or Roma............
No, this should never happen.....
No, this should never happen.....
If you would make a European League, the best would be to do it besides the national league.
For instance have 20 clubs in 2 groups of 10, followed by semi finals and a final (maybe a final 4 on 1 location). That way you can hold it during the current CL matchdays. If you start at the current Q3 dates you have exactly 18 weeks untill the current semi final dates (2 Q3, 2 Q4, 6 GS, 4 R2, 2 QF, 2 SF). Then you can relegate the worst 2 of each group and replace them by the semi finalists of the Europa League.
The best teams of the national leagues qualify for the Europa League.
This way the Europa League will get more interesting since it will be the only way for clubs to qualify for the European League, so clubs won't field their B-team there any more.
For instance have 20 clubs in 2 groups of 10, followed by semi finals and a final (maybe a final 4 on 1 location). That way you can hold it during the current CL matchdays. If you start at the current Q3 dates you have exactly 18 weeks untill the current semi final dates (2 Q3, 2 Q4, 6 GS, 4 R2, 2 QF, 2 SF). Then you can relegate the worst 2 of each group and replace them by the semi finalists of the Europa League.
The best teams of the national leagues qualify for the Europa League.
This way the Europa League will get more interesting since it will be the only way for clubs to qualify for the European League, so clubs won't field their B-team there any more.
The whole idea was to follow Francisco's analogy of Portugals development. There it started with national cup and regional leagues and ended with national league. Porto does not play regional league anymore. Following that sample means Chelsea, PSG, barca NOT playing regional league anymore, just CL.
Can that happen? As long as you need to do well domestically to enter next years CL, all teams will field top teams domestically. As soon as entrance will be closed, teams do not have to field their best team domestically anymore. They will save the best for CL. Domestic competitions will be handled by a B-team.... How long before the domestic leagues think this is unfair? one day they are great another they field a C-team because of an important CL match.....It will be restricted like 'players who play more thatn 5 CL mathces can't play domestically anymore, or stuff like that.
So yes I think it can happen. If CL becomes a league with promotion/relegation.
Can that happen? As long as you need to do well domestically to enter next years CL, all teams will field top teams domestically. As soon as entrance will be closed, teams do not have to field their best team domestically anymore. They will save the best for CL. Domestic competitions will be handled by a B-team.... How long before the domestic leagues think this is unfair? one day they are great another they field a C-team because of an important CL match.....It will be restricted like 'players who play more thatn 5 CL mathces can't play domestically anymore, or stuff like that.
So yes I think it can happen. If CL becomes a league with promotion/relegation.
It is unbelievable how times change so fast. Couple of years ago I proposed a format similar to this only slightly more radical (32 best teams in CL, others in EL with relegation/promotion system). I was told (to paraphrase Lyonnais's response at the time) that I was "more UEFA than UEFA". Now something not much different is being seriously discussed.
It is not that I was right at the time.It is that UEFA was always going in that direction and will never stop as long as new (more radical) options are more lucrative than previous.
It is not that I was right at the time.It is that UEFA was always going in that direction and will never stop as long as new (more radical) options are more lucrative than previous.
So the access list for 2018-2021 is official or UEFA still hasn't published it?
International break hater
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bjkman1903
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Yes.matt wrote:So the access list for 2018-2021 is official or UEFA still hasn't published it?
Not sure about the source of this document (is this original ?) - but it outlines the main changes.
See pdf file HERE
Black Eagles 1903