Instead of talking about the Marega's misses (i counted 3 huge misses that even i could score) they talk about the referees...shame.
About the suppose 2 referees errors that you talked about (the offside goal and the penalty not given), well if we have used the VAR that bjkman talked about we would have seen a faul on Grimaldo before that ball enters the net so...no goal for Porto, sorry, and about the penalti as i heard many times the rebounds doesn't count for penalti given and i need to recall you guys that in case of doubt the VAR doesn't enters in the equation, but why talk only about the mistakes in prejudice of Porto and not those of Benfica? bjkman saw only the highlights and perhaps those "minor" errors doesn't show up but felipe central back of Porto should receive a red card in the 10 min mark!! and playing with 10 men so early it would be very difficuld for Sergio Conceição's side...have the referee had such soft hand and Zivkovic would stay on the pitch (he did enter very well in the match).
About the game Porto were a lot better than Benfica, in the first 20 min we dominated them but in the rest it was all porto (especially in the second half), but as i told earlier, you have to put the ball in the net so Porto were better but the draw is fair.
The funny thing is that Porto fans of this forum always tries to denigrate Benfica year after year always saying in the beginning that Porto is better and that Benfica wont win it...and guess what, we are four times champions...
Ok this year Benfica is weaker than the other 2 rivals but we are only behind them by 3 points...the super great huge mega hiper Sporting and Porto.
And for concluding this post, i must speak to bjkman because i see many post of him and he always seems coeherent but in this case he was not...i recommend him to saw the entire game before speaking, i like Besiktas, we played with them last year and it was a nice opponent i understand that this year Besiktas and Porto share the same UCL group and give credits to your rivals is good because it'll enhace his team merits but it is not fair because gives a mensage to the people that didn't saw the game that Benfica drew because of the referee and that Benfica controls the sistem which is not true, it is the opposite, all it takes is to go to youtube and see what Porto staff did all the years...
I did not enter in the forum to fight and talk about escuses but i did read many thing mostly by Porto fans and some of them are false and unfairy.
a nice day to all you guys, including Porto fans.
Portuguese Football Season 2017/18
I agree that the referee was bad, but I don't see where Benfica was that much "helped". There was no offside, but there was a clear fault on a Benfica's defender, and either way it was never an unallowed goal: Varela defended the first shot, afterwards the game was stopped, and the gk didn't even try to defend the second shot, VAR can't do anything in a case like that (it that's good or not, that's another another question). I agree that there should have been a penalty, but Felipe should have been sent off in the beginning of the game already for a very harsh foul on Jonas, and Marega pushed a Benfica offical (who had kicked tha ball away and was sent off) and he didn't even see a yellow card. On the other hand, I agree with Zivkovic being sent off: players need to stop being stupid and not letting the other team play as quickly as possible.
Edit: A new user said almost the same as I did while I was writing, I only disagree abot the handball, it was a penalty in my opinion.
Edit: A new user said almost the same as I did while I was writing, I only disagree abot the handball, it was a penalty in my opinion.
-
bjkman1903
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4490
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 22:57
- Location: Belgium
As mentionned on my post, I only saw highlights of the game and I was already wondering about how VAR was doing so far in Portugal (see my previous question on this topic)dratini wrote:And for concluding this post, i must speak to bjkman because i see many post of him and he always seems coeherent but in this case he was not...i recommend him to saw the entire game before speaking, i like Besiktas, we played with them last year and it was a nice opponent i understand that this year Besiktas and Porto share the same UCL group and give credits to your rivals is good because it'll enhace his team merits but it is not fair because gives a mensage to the people that didn't saw the game that Benfica drew because of the referee and that Benfica controls the sistem which is not true, it is the opposite, all it takes is to go to youtube and see what Porto staff did all the years...
I did not enter in the forum to fight and talk about escuses but i did read many thing mostly by Porto fans and some of them are false and unfairy.
a nice day to all you guys, including Porto fans.
We're supposed to use VAR in Turkey next season, and to be honest I am not really convinced by its use so far..
I was not commenting on the game, just pointing out mistakes I saw on the highlights.
By the way, I also like Benfica (we share the same mascot, "eagle") and Besiktas sharing the same group as Porto has nothing to do here.
Have a nice day too and welcome to the forum!
Black Eagles 1903
-
Thunder_PT
- Senior Member
- Posts: 10871
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 23:36
- Location: Madrid, Spain
The topic introduced was VAR, so why would I answer with Marega's misses? Yes, even ignoring the controversy, Porto would still have won if Marega scored one of the sitters (that just goes to show Porto could have easily won 4-0), but that doesn't excuse the ref mistakes. And the "what about" strategy won't work, the calls supposedly gone Porto's way are false equivalencies, you yourself called them minor. A significant effort must be made to try to make the case that Benfica was just as hurt by the ref in that game (or in a long time), they weren't.
As I said before, I've stayed away from talking about refs and all this suspicion for years (I used to comment here every match day, check how often I've mentioned referee cases in past threads, even in weeks where the main talking point in Portugal were referee mistakes) and I wish all these guys like Francisco J. Marques and Nuno Saraiva would just disappear, they disgust me and so do the mediums that give them a spotlight. But it's getting harder and harder to ignore the signs. I'm not insinuating there's active corruption, an investigation would eventually bring that to light if that were the case. But especially now with VAR, the selective way it's used is suspicious to say the least.
As for denigrating Benfica, I've never done so unless fully deserved, like their horrible CL campaign, I'd criticize Porto just as much in the same situation.
Finally, I'm still a supporter of VAR, it's not perfect but it's still better than not having it (a situation like the ball in in the Barcelona Valencia game would just not happen in Portugal) and it's only gonna improve. Scratching it would be a mistake.
As I said before, I've stayed away from talking about refs and all this suspicion for years (I used to comment here every match day, check how often I've mentioned referee cases in past threads, even in weeks where the main talking point in Portugal were referee mistakes) and I wish all these guys like Francisco J. Marques and Nuno Saraiva would just disappear, they disgust me and so do the mediums that give them a spotlight. But it's getting harder and harder to ignore the signs. I'm not insinuating there's active corruption, an investigation would eventually bring that to light if that were the case. But especially now with VAR, the selective way it's used is suspicious to say the least.
As for denigrating Benfica, I've never done so unless fully deserved, like their horrible CL campaign, I'd criticize Porto just as much in the same situation.
Finally, I'm still a supporter of VAR, it's not perfect but it's still better than not having it (a situation like the ball in in the Barcelona Valencia game would just not happen in Portugal) and it's only gonna improve. Scratching it would be a mistake.
My opinion about VAR:
Advantages:
It's a good support for the referee (if well used).
It has diminished the number of errors in the matches (but there is still a long way to go - see Disadvantages).
The problems it introduced aren't (most of them) the VAR fault.
Disadvantages:
VAR is only used in 4 situations: penalty decisions; goal decision - with special mention to the evaluation of off-side decisions (if field referee hasn't already whistled for the offside - this part is stupid, and influences my next remark!); red card decisions; mistaken identity cases.
Referees season ranking - the main problem is that field referees and VAR are being evaluated in the matches and sometimes it appears that "prideful" referees are ignoring the VAR. Everytime a VAR corrects the field referee decision the field referee evaluation is turned down a notch. This is making that some referees are whistling before time and making even more mistakes (Example: off-side cases if the field referee whislts for the off-side and he made a mistake he can no longer correct his decision, this may invalidate dangerous attacking plays or even goals) Wrong VAR decisions also influence the evaluation of the VAR referee.
Some technological problems still exist: There is no way to know besides certain specific times in the game if the Field and VAR Referees are still with an active communication system. I'm not entirely sure but there exist only 3 check-up times: in the middle of each half (around minute 22' and 67') and during interval time (minute 45'). There has been some problems with communication loss and not whole of them are publicly known.
Additional remarks:
IMO VAR should be extended to more game situations. It makes no sense to evaluated Field and VAR as separate teams. They should be consider an whole team, and this way more trust and better judgment would be made. Less errors in off-side decisions (the Field ref could avoid whistls and wait for a more correct evaluation from the VAR). If evaluation officials only evaluated the entirety of the referee team on the global decision it would be better and would reduce the number of times the field referee avoids listening to the VAR information.
Better definition regarding when a play should be invalidated by the VAR is needed (some VARs are considering that goal-plays that start in midfield with a non-sanctioned foul should be invalidated, while others only consider what happened in the final part of the play - last assist and/or goal shot).
Number of cameras available to the VAR in each field should be the same.
Benfica, Porto and Sporting have been the most vocal clubs and continue to bitter a lot. IMO these are the 3 clubs that are being more (and rightly so) benefitted with the VAR introduction. In the balance of penalties and offside right/wrong decisions with VAR introduction these clubs are having more decisions going their way. In the past more penalties or wrong offside decisions weren't as good as people may think to them. Basically in case of doubt the more attacking team wasn't awarded a goal or penalty that in truth was a goal or penalty. RIght now I would say the percentage of right decisions is better for them (even if it's still not perfect).
There are still some ambiguous cases that continue, and will continue to be ambiguous. Some decisions, even with a lot of repeats on TV continue to be unclear. In these cases the decision of the Field Referee should always be respected. The problem is that respect is something that is amiss a lot these days in the Portuguese League.
Overall I like the VAR introduction, but I think it can get much better than it already is.
Advantages:
It's a good support for the referee (if well used).
It has diminished the number of errors in the matches (but there is still a long way to go - see Disadvantages).
The problems it introduced aren't (most of them) the VAR fault.
Disadvantages:
VAR is only used in 4 situations: penalty decisions; goal decision - with special mention to the evaluation of off-side decisions (if field referee hasn't already whistled for the offside - this part is stupid, and influences my next remark!); red card decisions; mistaken identity cases.
Referees season ranking - the main problem is that field referees and VAR are being evaluated in the matches and sometimes it appears that "prideful" referees are ignoring the VAR. Everytime a VAR corrects the field referee decision the field referee evaluation is turned down a notch. This is making that some referees are whistling before time and making even more mistakes (Example: off-side cases if the field referee whislts for the off-side and he made a mistake he can no longer correct his decision, this may invalidate dangerous attacking plays or even goals) Wrong VAR decisions also influence the evaluation of the VAR referee.
Some technological problems still exist: There is no way to know besides certain specific times in the game if the Field and VAR Referees are still with an active communication system. I'm not entirely sure but there exist only 3 check-up times: in the middle of each half (around minute 22' and 67') and during interval time (minute 45'). There has been some problems with communication loss and not whole of them are publicly known.
Additional remarks:
IMO VAR should be extended to more game situations. It makes no sense to evaluated Field and VAR as separate teams. They should be consider an whole team, and this way more trust and better judgment would be made. Less errors in off-side decisions (the Field ref could avoid whistls and wait for a more correct evaluation from the VAR). If evaluation officials only evaluated the entirety of the referee team on the global decision it would be better and would reduce the number of times the field referee avoids listening to the VAR information.
Better definition regarding when a play should be invalidated by the VAR is needed (some VARs are considering that goal-plays that start in midfield with a non-sanctioned foul should be invalidated, while others only consider what happened in the final part of the play - last assist and/or goal shot).
Number of cameras available to the VAR in each field should be the same.
Benfica, Porto and Sporting have been the most vocal clubs and continue to bitter a lot. IMO these are the 3 clubs that are being more (and rightly so) benefitted with the VAR introduction. In the balance of penalties and offside right/wrong decisions with VAR introduction these clubs are having more decisions going their way. In the past more penalties or wrong offside decisions weren't as good as people may think to them. Basically in case of doubt the more attacking team wasn't awarded a goal or penalty that in truth was a goal or penalty. RIght now I would say the percentage of right decisions is better for them (even if it's still not perfect).
There are still some ambiguous cases that continue, and will continue to be ambiguous. Some decisions, even with a lot of repeats on TV continue to be unclear. In these cases the decision of the Field Referee should always be respected. The problem is that respect is something that is amiss a lot these days in the Portuguese League.
Overall I like the VAR introduction, but I think it can get much better than it already is.
January 3:
Aves 1 - 2 Moreirense
Boavista 1 - 3 Braga
Maritimo 1 - 2 Chaves
Rio Ave 4 - 2 Pacos de Ferreira
Feirense 1 - 2 FC Porto
Benfica 1 - 1 Sporting CP
January 4:
Vitoria de Setubal 2 - 2 Estoril
Portimonense 0 - 0 Belenenses
1 FC Porto 42
2 Sporting CP 40
3 Benfica 37
4 Braga 34
5 Maritimo 27
6 Rio Ave 27
7 Vitoria de Guimaraes 23
8 Chaves 22
9 Boavista 20
10 Tondela 18
11 Belenenses 18
12 Portimonense 14
13 Feirense 14
14 Moreirense 14
15 Aves 13
16 Pacos de Ferreira 13
17 Estoril 12
18 Vitoria de Setubal 11
Aves 1 - 2 Moreirense
Boavista 1 - 3 Braga
Maritimo 1 - 2 Chaves
Rio Ave 4 - 2 Pacos de Ferreira
Feirense 1 - 2 FC Porto
Benfica 1 - 1 Sporting CP
January 4:
Vitoria de Setubal 2 - 2 Estoril
Portimonense 0 - 0 Belenenses
1 FC Porto 42
2 Sporting CP 40
3 Benfica 37
4 Braga 34
5 Maritimo 27
6 Rio Ave 27
7 Vitoria de Guimaraes 23
8 Chaves 22
9 Boavista 20
10 Tondela 18
11 Belenenses 18
12 Portimonense 14
13 Feirense 14
14 Moreirense 14
15 Aves 13
16 Pacos de Ferreira 13
17 Estoril 12
18 Vitoria de Setubal 11
What happened in Tondela today ?
Match canceled at 1-0.
Match canceled at 1-0.
-
Thunder_PT
- Senior Member
- Posts: 10871
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 23:36
- Location: Madrid, Spain
You probably mean Estoril. One of the stands gave way slightly (2 cm) and a fissure appeared in the structure. The match didn't resume for security reasons. A new date will have to be scheduled for the remaining 45 minutes.SirHenri wrote:What happened in Tondela today ?
Match canceled at 1-0.
oh yeah, somehow I thought my ticker said Tondela.
I saw some photos, never seen a reason like that before
I saw some photos, never seen a reason like that before
A new channel available on the Sky Platform called Freesports has begun showing Portuguese top level matches for free in the UK, and I decided to watch this game out of curiosity having visited Estoril recently to see if they could cause a shock, or perhaps watch some quality football from Porto. Estoril played well in the 1st half and scored a great free kick goal to take the lead. Porto failed to take advantage of some good counter attacks being unlucky to hit the bar at one point. I was looking forward to the 2nd half to see if Estoril could hang on or whether Porto would get their act together.Thunder_PT wrote:You probably mean Estoril. One of the stands gave way slightly (2 cm) and a fissure appeared in the structure. The match didn't resume for security reasons. A new date will have to be scheduled for the remaining 45 minutes.SirHenri wrote:What happened in Tondela today ?
Match canceled at 1-0.
A shame for Estoril that this happened, but the organisation was awful. They first tried to place the Porto fans in with the Estoril fans then seemed to change their minds and put half of them back in the lower half of the stand whilst evacuating others. According to my host broadcaster they then announced that the game would commence shortly only to change their minds again and evacuate the remaining fans.
I don't know what the rules are here for this situation. Will the game be replayed, completed from 1-0 after 45 mins. or awarded a default win to Porto?
Either way Porto may have had a fortunate escape yesterday evening.
-
AlanK
- Senior Member
- Posts: 17521
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 23:48
- Location: Salem, Oregon and Barcelona, Spain; occasionally Lisboa
abola.pt seems to suggest that (1) the game could be completed from 1-0 after 45 minutes, OR (2) that a default win could be given to Porto, since the stadium did not meet safety requirements. Maybe I missed it, but a replay (from the start) didn't seem to be considered. What a messSimonB wrote:A new channel available on the Sky Platform called Freesports has begun showing Portuguese top level matches for free in the UK, and I decided to watch this game out of curiosity having visited Estoril recently to see if they could cause a shock, or perhaps watch some quality football from Porto. Estoril played well in the 1st half and scored a great free kick goal to take the lead. Porto failed to take advantage of some good counter attacks being unlucky to hit the bar at one point. I was looking forward to the 2nd half to see if Estoril could hang on or whether Porto would get their act together.Thunder_PT wrote:You probably mean Estoril. One of the stands gave way slightly (2 cm) and a fissure appeared in the structure. The match didn't resume for security reasons. A new date will have to be scheduled for the remaining 45 minutes.SirHenri wrote:What happened in Tondela today ?
Match canceled at 1-0.
A shame for Estoril that this happened, but the organisation was awful. They first tried to place the Porto fans in with the Estoril fans then seemed to change their minds and put half of them back in the lower half of the stand whilst evacuating others. According to my host broadcaster they then announced that the game would commence shortly only to change their minds again and evacuate the remaining fans.
I don't know what the rules are here for this situation. Will the game be replayed, completed from 1-0 after 45 mins. or awarded a default win to Porto?
Either way Porto may have had a fortunate escape yesterday evening.
Update: Not yet official, but abola.pt says it looks like the second half of the game will be played on 21 February.
"Past performance is no guarantee of future results."
-
Thunder_PT
- Senior Member
- Posts: 10871
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 23:36
- Location: Madrid, Spain
The 2nd half will be played on the 21st of February.
Default defeat for the home team for lack of stadium conditions is in the rules, but wasn't applied here for some reason. Maybe because you can play without that stand (just speculating here)?
Default defeat for the home team for lack of stadium conditions is in the rules, but wasn't applied here for some reason. Maybe because you can play without that stand (just speculating here)?
Yes and no. Porto's performance last night was atrocious, Brahimi's absence was truly felt, so if they didn't improve in the 2nd half, they'd probably drop points. However, Porto's schedule is insane, being active in 4 competitions, they could play 13 games in the next 49 days (if they beat Sporting and reach the League Cup final) and the squad isn't that deep. Porto had every interest in finishing the game yesterday and, in fact, it was the will of both Porto and Estoril to continue playing that delayed decision to suspend the match for so long.SimonB wrote: Either way Porto may have had a fortunate escape yesterday evening.
-
Dragonite
- Senior Member
- Posts: 12061
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 19:42
- Location: Lisboa, Portugal
- Contact:
Something unbelievable happened yesterday in Tondela vs. Sporting!!!
The referee gave 4 minutes of added time.
When there were only 20 seconds left to play from those 4 minutes, the game was interrupted because a Tondela player was injured.
And when it restarted, instead of playing only the 20 seconds left, it seems that the referee forgot that 3 minutes and 40 seconds of added time had already been played, and gave another 4 minutes!!
Is he dishonest and simply decided that the game wouldn’t end until Sporting scored?
Or is he just dumb and can’t tell the difference between the seconds hand and the minutes hand in a clock?!
Plus nowadays the matches are refereed by SIX PEOPLE, the referee, two linesmen, a fourth referee and the two VAR’s.
None of these people realized that something very strange was happening here?!?!?!?!?!?
Are they all dumb, or are they all dishonest?!
The referee gave 4 minutes of added time.
When there were only 20 seconds left to play from those 4 minutes, the game was interrupted because a Tondela player was injured.
And when it restarted, instead of playing only the 20 seconds left, it seems that the referee forgot that 3 minutes and 40 seconds of added time had already been played, and gave another 4 minutes!!
Is he dishonest and simply decided that the game wouldn’t end until Sporting scored?
Or is he just dumb and can’t tell the difference between the seconds hand and the minutes hand in a clock?!
Plus nowadays the matches are refereed by SIX PEOPLE, the referee, two linesmen, a fourth referee and the two VAR’s.
None of these people realized that something very strange was happening here?!?!?!?!?!?
Are they all dumb, or are they all dishonest?!
Records and Statistics:
Champions League (all 141 participants - 1992/1993 to 2019/2020)
Europa League (all 215 participants - 2009/2010 to 2019/2020)
UEFA Youth League (all 162 participants - 2013/2014 to 2019/2020)
Champions League (all 141 participants - 1992/1993 to 2019/2020) Europa League (all 215 participants - 2009/2010 to 2019/2020) UEFA Youth League (all 162 participants - 2013/2014 to 2019/2020)
yeah that was very weird, probably Sporting bought the ref 
It's obvious that it was Benfica that bought the ref:subway14 wrote:yeah that was very weird, probably Sporting bought the ref
1- If Sporting dropped points, they would be so far away from Porto that they wouldn't fight against Porto within 2 weeks.
(this was stated by Pedro Guerra in "Prolongamento", since he usually knows stuff ahead of everyone and is(?) involved in the "E-Mails Affair" maybe he was giving us a clue
2- Keeping Sporting on the news, keeps "Operation Lex" off, and that means LFV (Benfica's president) is off the spotlight
3- João Capela (the referee) has a great history of most of the time favoring Benfica, and being bad for the other big 2 (ok, there are a few exceptions here and there, but that was done to avoid suspicions)
About the extra-minutes: I think it was too much, but it was not Sporting's fault that they continued playing and Sporting kept on trying to score.
There have been more games with too much added minutes this season, and Porto and Benfica were also benefitted by this practice.
Other way to look at this is Karma: Sporting dropped 2 points in Setúbal unfairly and gained them here in Tondela. Also Tondela usually helps Benfica and plays real football against Sporting and Porto, so it was a fair that for once they were punished for it.
Due to VAR introduction there's a suggestion made in Italy to have 2 parts of 30 minutes real play. I think this won't work here in Portugal, because smaller teams will arrange other ways to delay the match.
Extra question: Maybe I didn't see the repetition of the foul that WC committed enough time, but was it weird that the photo shown by Tondela's president shows injuries in places where William Carvalho didn't put his foot?