2017/18 CL GRP F Shaktar x Manchester City x Napoli x Feyenoord

[Duketown]

What was undeserved about the qualification of Feyenoord for a direct Champions League Group Stage spot? Feyenoord isn't the only one that underperformed a couple of seasons. I remember a PSV finishing third in an Europa League group with the "mighty" Odessa and Ludogorets in 2013 and Ajax finishing third in an Europa League group in 2015 with the "mighty" Molde winning that group.

There is nothing undeserved about Feyenoord's qualification: they became Eredivisie champion.

If you want to compare Feyenoord to Ajax and PSV concerning UEFA performance, don't use worsted performance to prove a point. Take for let's say UEFA performance of the last 20 years and see that Feyenoord's contributing to Dutch UEFA success is much less significant than that of Ajax and PSV (and even Twente and AZ, I think).

[Kroezero]

Expected results in this group, the only group playing in the evening of Tuesday October 17th without surprises.

Still some interesting facts worth mentioning about Shakhtar Donetsk:

First, their coach Paulo Fonseca already got more points in just 3 matches for Shakhtar Donetsk, than in his entire CL campaign for FC Porto in 2013/2014.

Second, in that same 2013/2014 season, Shakhtar Donetsk signed Bernard and paid 25M€ for him.
It took him four years and twenty CL matches to finally score a goal for them in the CL (and he did it twice).
Will Shakhtar Donetsk have to wait another four years and twenty CL matches for him to score again?


Feyenoord waited a lot more than that to return to the CL, 15 years, and now are probably wishing they hadn’t.
When they played the CL four times between 1997/1998 and 2002/2003 they were a competitive team that could get 35 points in 30 CL matches (and also go all the way to win the UEFA Cup in 2001/2002). Now they are a harmless team that may not even be able to get a single point.

This has a broader range than just Feyenoord, there are several teams that were competitive 15 years ago and now aren’t anymore. What are the causes for this? CL spots distribution and revenue distribution system?

But the likes of Valencia, Werder Bremen, Newcastle, Lazio (just to mention one each from UEFA’s four favourite members) were also much bigger back then than they are right now. So maybe these decadent clubs should search for internal reasons and not external reasons.


Napoli is having its worst ever start in CL, never before they had only 3 points after round 3 (5 in 2011/2012, 6 in 2013/2014, and 6 in 2016/2017). Can they still reverse this?

Manchester City, on the other hand, keeps having its best ever start.
They are one win away from equaling their biggest ever CL winning streak of 4 matches, but that was accomplished between rounds 3 and 6 of the 2013/2014 group stage, “only” against CSKA Moscow (twice) plus Viktoria Plzen plus an already qualified Bayern Munich, while this one, if they do it again, will be more impressive, because of the opponents’ level (excluding Feyenoord) and also because it was in the first four rounds.

Anyway, I suppose they haven’t signed Guardiola and all those expensive players just to progress from CL group stages (Pellegrini could also ensure them that), we’ll only know if their project was successful or not later – last season it wasn’t, because they immediately crashed against Monaco.

Talking about 'stealing' a European place. For the third year running the Netherlands had a weak cupwinner. But apparently everybody here seems to like the idea that the cupwinner of a country should take the first EL-place. Does nobody understand that this is just a disadvantage for the smaller countries. They have to fight for the points and most of the times their weakest representative starts as last one. And the biggest countries never will lose their top 4 position. I don't get it that the smaller countries went for this.
Yeah, and Feyenoord. Our league is weak, so are our champions. They play awfull defensive football and somehow I hope they will break the PSV record. But probably Napoli will come with their C team and lose 2-0 next week.
I hope UEFA will survive, as Dutch TV overpays for CL rigths as I understand. And now there will be budget-cuts for public TV so the commercial ones will bit less next time. Who seriously wants to watch the sixth round of CL groupphase without a team from their own country?

[Dragonite]

Yeah, and Feyenoord. Our league is weak, so are our champions. They play awfull defensive football and somehow I hope they will break the PSV record. But probably Napoli will come with their C team and lose 2-0 next week.

What!?
Why would Napoli want to lose the game? With a win possibly they’ll advance to the CL last 16 round (if Shakhtar loses its game).
Historically Napoli always won its MD6 game:
2011: 2-1 away win against last placed Villarreal (that like Feyenoord was also a 0-0-5 team)
2013: 2-0 home win against Arsenal
2016: 2-1 away win against Benfica

If they defeated stronger teams like Villarreal, Arsenal and Benfica, why wouldn’t they defeat Feyenoord?


Note: My idea of “C team” is not bringing any of their best 22 players.
If your idea of “C team” is something different, like resting 2 starters, then we’re talking about different things.

[FR-Rinaldo]

What was undeserved about the qualification of Feyenoord for a direct Champions League Group Stage spot? Feyenoord isn't the only one that underperformed a couple of seasons. I remember a PSV finishing third in an Europa League group with the "mighty" Odessa and Ludogorets in 2013 and Ajax finishing third in an Europa League group in 2015 with the "mighty" Molde winning that group.

There is nothing undeserved about Feyenoord's qualification: they became Eredivisie champion.

If you want to compare Feyenoord to Ajax and PSV concerning UEFA performance, don't use worsted performance to prove a point. Take for let's say UEFA performance of the last 20 years and see that Feyenoord's contributing to Dutch UEFA success is much less significant than that of Ajax and PSV (and even Twente and AZ, I think).

I know Feyenoord hasn't contributed many points to the Dutch ranking. I was replying to Dragonite's reaction that other clubs have to work hard cause of the "silver plate" route that Feyenoord got with qualifying directly for Champions League Group Stage. Considering PSV didn't take the Europa League very serious (and therefore was punished with an early exit) for a few years the low Dutch coëfficiënt isn't only because other teams didn't perform at their standards. Plus winning a Fair-play spot for, I think 2 seasons, and sending a team that wouldn't go far didn't help as well. I think Feyenoord gave it's best shot last year with Man Utd. and Fenerbahce and the 2014/15 Europa League season by winning it's group.

[Duketown]

What was undeserved about the qualification of Feyenoord for a direct Champions League Group Stage spot? Feyenoord isn't the only one that underperformed a couple of seasons. I remember a PSV finishing third in an Europa League group with the "mighty" Odessa and Ludogorets in 2013 and Ajax finishing third in an Europa League group in 2015 with the "mighty" Molde winning that group.

There is nothing undeserved about Feyenoord's qualification: they became Eredivisie champion.

If you want to compare Feyenoord to Ajax and PSV concerning UEFA performance, don't use worsted performance to prove a point. Take for let's say UEFA performance of the last 20 years and see that Feyenoord's contributing to Dutch UEFA success is much less significant than that of Ajax and PSV (and even Twente and AZ, I think).

I think Feyenoord gave it's best shot last year with Man Utd. and Fenerbahce and the 2014/15 Europa League season by winning it's group.

Sure. Dutch football had a terrible year, without WC qualifications and Ajax and PSV not qualifying for UEFA football. Only success was women becoming EC champs.

This years CL poule can happen with 0 points for Feyenoord but it's a terrible performance after last years Ajax EL final and the year before that PSV almost beaten Atletico in CL knock-out phase and the year after the Dutch had a bronze WC medal.

[FR-Rinaldo]

What was undeserved about the qualification of Feyenoord for a direct Champions League Group Stage spot?

Once upon a time, a family started saving money during the week to buy a 35.65€ cake and eat it during the weekend.

Monday (2012): AZ Alkmaar contributed with 3.7€, PSV with 3.5€, Twente with 3.4€, Ajax with 2.4€, and even tiny ADO Den Haag with 0.6€

Tuesday (2013): Twente contributed with 1.5€, Ajax with 1.29€, PSV with 1€, Vitesse with 0.21€, Heerenveen with 0.14€, Feyenoord with 0.07€, and yesterday’s biggest contributor AZ Alkmaar this time contributed with nothing, 0€.

Wednesday (2014): AZ Alkmaar was once again the biggest contributor with 2.83€, followed by Ajax with 1.67€, PSV with 1.25€, tiny Utrecht and Vitesse with 0.08€ each, and Feyenoord contributed with nothing, 0€

Thursday (2015): Ajax contributed with 2.33€, Feyenoord with 1.75€, PSV with 1.67€, Twente with 0.17€, and tiny Groningen and Zwolle with 0.08€ each

Friday (2016): PSV contributed with 3€, Ajax with 1.33€, AZ Alkmaar with 1€, Groningen with 0.33€, GA Eagles with 0.08€, and Vitesse with nothing, 0€

Total contributions to the 35.65€ cake:
PSV 10.42€ (29,3%), Ajax 9.02€ (25,4%), AZ 7.53€ (21,2%), Twente 5.07€ (14,2%), Feyenoord 1.82€ (5,1%), all the other combined 1.71€ (4,8%)

Saturday they bought the cake.

Sunday the deadbeat that only contributed with 1.82€ (5,1%) ate the cake alone and the rest of the family starved.

Not a very nice story to tell to children, is it?

So? Seeing which club in the Champions League would have been fair to you? Should we send Ajax to the CL (despite being eliminated 4 times in a row in the Group Stage)? Should we send PSV to the Champions League for getting 2 points last year in their group?

[Dragonite]

What was undeserved about the qualification of Feyenoord for a direct Champions League Group Stage spot?

Once upon a time, a family started saving money during the week to buy a 35.65€ cake and eat it during the weekend.

Monday (2012): AZ Alkmaar contributed with 3.7€, PSV with 3.5€, Twente with 3.4€, Ajax with 2.4€, and even tiny ADO Den Haag with 0.6€

Tuesday (2013): Twente contributed with 1.5€, Ajax with 1.29€, PSV with 1€, Vitesse with 0.21€, Heerenveen with 0.14€, Feyenoord with 0.07€, and yesterday’s biggest contributor AZ Alkmaar this time contributed with nothing, 0€.

Wednesday (2014): AZ Alkmaar was once again the biggest contributor with 2.83€, followed by Ajax with 1.67€, PSV with 1.25€, tiny Utrecht and Vitesse with 0.08€ each, and Feyenoord contributed with nothing, 0€

Thursday (2015): Ajax contributed with 2.33€, Feyenoord with 1.75€, PSV with 1.67€, Twente with 0.17€, and tiny Groningen and Zwolle with 0.08€ each

Friday (2016): PSV contributed with 3€, Ajax with 1.33€, AZ Alkmaar with 1€, Groningen with 0.33€, GA Eagles with 0.08€, and Vitesse with nothing, 0€

Total contributions to the 35.65€ cake:
PSV 10.42€ (29,3%), Ajax 9.02€ (25,4%), AZ 7.53€ (21,2%), Twente 5.07€ (14,2%), Feyenoord 1.82€ (5,1%), all the other combined 1.71€ (4,8%)

Saturday they bought the cake.

Sunday the deadbeat that only contributed with 1.82€ (5,1%) ate the cake alone and the rest of the family starved.

Not a very nice story to tell to children, is it?

So? Seeing which club in the Champions League would have been fair to you? Should we send Ajax to the CL (despite being eliminated 4 times in a row in the Group Stage)? Should we send PSV to the Champions League for getting 2 points last year in their group?

My problem with Feyenoord is DIRECT qualification.
If they survive two or three qualifying rounds, like for instance APOEL, Celtic, Qarabag or Maribor did, I wouldn’t be angry with them being in the CL group stages.

But then I see what happened whenever Feyenoord was in the qualifiers over the last seasons:
2016/2017: directly to ELGS, couldn’t go any further
2014/2015: eliminated in CLQR3 by Besiktas, then advanced against Zorya in ELQR4 and against Rijeka and Standard Liège in ELGS, then eliminated by Roma in EL last 32 round
2013/2014: eliminated in ELQR4 by Kuban Krasnodar
2012/2013: eliminated in CLQR3 by Dynamo Kiev and then in ELQR4 by Sparta Prague
2010/2011: eliminated in ELQR4 by Gent
2008/2009: Advanced against Kalmar in the 1st round, then lost every game in the group stage against Nancy, CSKA Moscow, Deportivo and Lech Poznan

So in the last decade, Feyenoord missed four seasons, in three others was eliminated in the qualifiers, and thrice made it to UEFA Cup/EL group stages, where in two of these occasions they couldn’t go any further (once even losing every game there), and only once they managed to reach the last 32 round.

Do I like to see a club like this DIRECTLY in the CL group stages? No!
Not even in ELGS.

Do YOU like to see them in CL?

[Kroezero]

Yeah, and Feyenoord. Our league is weak, so are our champions. They play awfull defensive football and somehow I hope they will break the PSV record. But probably Napoli will come with their C team and lose 2-0 next week.

What!?
Why would Napoli want to lose the game? With a win possibly they’ll advance to the CL last 16 round (if Shakhtar loses its game).
Historically Napoli always won its MD6 game:
2011: 2-1 away win against last placed Villarreal (that like Feyenoord was also a 0-0-5 team)
2013: 2-0 home win against Arsenal
2016: 2-1 away win against Benfica

If they defeated stronger teams like Villarreal, Arsenal and Benfica, why wouldn’t they defeat Feyenoord?


Note: My idea of “C team” is not bringing any of their best 22 players.
If your idea of “C team” is something different, like resting 2 starters, then we’re talking about different things.

Well let's make it a B team then
But I think Man City will go with their reserves to a slippery pitch in Ukraine and lose 2 or 3 points there. So Napoli will take it easy in Rotterdam. I think their main goal this season will be Serie A.
But they are allowed to proof me wrong.

[FR-Rinaldo]

Once upon a time, a family started saving money during the week to buy a 35.65€ cake and eat it during the weekend.

Monday (2012): AZ Alkmaar contributed with 3.7€, PSV with 3.5€, Twente with 3.4€, Ajax with 2.4€, and even tiny ADO Den Haag with 0.6€

Tuesday (2013): Twente contributed with 1.5€, Ajax with 1.29€, PSV with 1€, Vitesse with 0.21€, Heerenveen with 0.14€, Feyenoord with 0.07€, and yesterday’s biggest contributor AZ Alkmaar this time contributed with nothing, 0€.

Wednesday (2014): AZ Alkmaar was once again the biggest contributor with 2.83€, followed by Ajax with 1.67€, PSV with 1.25€, tiny Utrecht and Vitesse with 0.08€ each, and Feyenoord contributed with nothing, 0€

Thursday (2015): Ajax contributed with 2.33€, Feyenoord with 1.75€, PSV with 1.67€, Twente with 0.17€, and tiny Groningen and Zwolle with 0.08€ each

Friday (2016): PSV contributed with 3€, Ajax with 1.33€, AZ Alkmaar with 1€, Groningen with 0.33€, GA Eagles with 0.08€, and Vitesse with nothing, 0€

Total contributions to the 35.65€ cake:
PSV 10.42€ (29,3%), Ajax 9.02€ (25,4%), AZ 7.53€ (21,2%), Twente 5.07€ (14,2%), Feyenoord 1.82€ (5,1%), all the other combined 1.71€ (4,8%)

Saturday they bought the cake.

Sunday the deadbeat that only contributed with 1.82€ (5,1%) ate the cake alone and the rest of the family starved.

Not a very nice story to tell to children, is it?

So? Seeing which club in the Champions League would have been fair to you? Should we send Ajax to the CL (despite being eliminated 4 times in a row in the Group Stage)? Should we send PSV to the Champions League for getting 2 points last year in their group?

My problem with Feyenoord is DIRECT qualification.
If they survive two or three qualifying rounds, like for instance APOEL, Celtic, Qarabag or Maribor did, I wouldn’t be angry with them being in the CL group stages.

But then I see what happened whenever Feyenoord was in the qualifiers over the last seasons:
2016/2017: directly to ELGS, couldn’t go any further
2014/2015: eliminated in CLQR3 by Besiktas, then advanced against Zorya in ELQR4 and against Rijeka and Standard Liège in ELGS, then eliminated by Roma in EL last 32 round
2013/2014: eliminated in ELQR4 by Kuban Krasnodar
2012/2013: eliminated in CLQR3 by Dynamo Kiev and then in ELQR4 by Sparta Prague
2010/2011: eliminated in ELQR4 by Gent
2008/2009: Advanced against Kalmar in the 1st round, then lost every game in the group stage against Nancy, CSKA Moscow, Deportivo and Lech Poznan

So in the last decade, Feyenoord missed four seasons, in three others was eliminated in the qualifiers, and thrice made it to UEFA Cup/EL group stages, where in two of these occasions they couldn’t go any further (once even losing every game there), and only once they managed to reach the last 32 round.

Do I like to see a club like this DIRECTLY in the CL group stages? No!
Not even in ELGS.

Do YOU like to see them in CL?

Yes, I'd like to see them in CL for one reason...the money that we earn by playing in it to close the financial gap with Ajax and PSV a bit. For the rest CL for a Dutch team usually means you become a piece of toy to play with for the big teams in Europe. From 2012/2013 and on we have been the unseeded team in those qualifiers (except vs. Kuban Krasnodar and Zorya). In the 2016/2017 we were a pot 3 team and drawn with Manchester United and Fenerbahce in a group . The 2014/2015 season we were a pot 3 team winning a group with Sevilla in it. Generally I think we performed as expected in the last 5 years.

My problem is that a lot of teams that are not even champions in their own country are directly qualified for the CHAMPIONS League and that clubs that become champions in their domestic league (like Austria, Greece, Sweden, Norway etc.) have to survive multiple qualifying rounds to play in a competition that should represent CHAMPIONS of domestic leagues.

[Club-Mate]

Swiss and Greek Champions have not played qualies a lot but were favored many years by being placed 13th and better.
The most CL qualifiers have played by far Salzburg but they might get a "wildcard" in 2019/20.

[FR-Rinaldo]

Swiss and Greek Champions have not played qualies a lot but were favored many years by being placed 13th and better.
The most CL qualifiers have played by far Salzburg but they might get a "wildcard" in 2019/20.

I removed Switzerland in my post but tried to explain that champions from as much countries as possible should get direct places in group stages instead of numbers 2, 3 and (in future) 4 from other countries.

[Dragonite]

In 1996/1997 you had 16 champions.
In 2017/2018 you have 18 champions + 14 “giants” to make the tournament competitive.

Would you rather not have these 14 “giants” and instead have 14 “domestic league first placed teams”?

So, no Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Tottenham, Manchester City, Roma, FC Porto, Paris Saint-Germain, Sevilla, Liverpool, Napoli, Sporting and CSKA Moscow?

And instead Slavia Prague, Viitorul Constanta, FC Salzburg, Rijeka, Legia Warsaw, BATE Borisov, Malmo, Rosenborg, Hapoel Beer-Sheva, FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Astana, Ludogorets and Zilina?

Most of these “domestic league first placed teams” are in the EL now, a competition where they have good chances to shine, instead of being everybody else’s punching bag.


And that initial prize that “0-0-6” CL teams are still happy to get, isn’t that a double-edged sword?
Teams can get more than that by selling just one of their players.
Example with Feyenoord, 14M€ for Karsdorp and 15M€ for Kongolo…
But who will want to sign a player from a “0-0-6” team?!
Good luck trying to sell any player for a meaningful amount anytime soon now that everybody saw how harmless they are in a meaningful competition against serious opposition.

[FR-Rinaldo]

In 1996/1997 you had 16 champions.
In 2017/2018 you have 18 champions + 14 “giants” to make the tournament competitive.

Would you rather not have these 14 “giants” and instead have 14 “domestic league first placed teams”?

So, no Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Tottenham, Manchester City, Roma, FC Porto, Paris Saint-Germain, Sevilla, Liverpool, Napoli, Sporting and CSKA Moscow?

And instead Slavia Prague, Viitorul Constanta, FC Salzburg, Rijeka, Legia Warsaw, BATE Borisov, Malmo, Rosenborg, Hapoel Beer-Sheva, FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Astana, Ludogorets and Zilina?

Most of these “domestic league first placed teams” are in the EL now, a competition where they have good chances to shine, instead of being everybody else’s punching bag.


And that initial prize that “0-0-6” CL teams are still happy to get, isn’t that a double-edged sword?
Teams can get more than that by selling just one of their players.
Example with Feyenoord, 14M€ for Karsdorp and 15M€ for Kongolo…
But who will want to sign a player from a “0-0-6” team?!
Good luck trying to sell any player for a meaningful amount anytime soon now that everybody saw how harmless they are in a meaningful competition against serious opposition.

Of course it is a double-edged sword. I didn't say I would be happy with a 0-0-6 but I also know there are a few circumstances why we might end up with a 0-0-6. For example the fact that we haven't been able to play with a full strength team in any of our 6 matches. Making it even more difficult to get good results vs. teams that are in excellent form as well.

The other side of it is that players get valuable experience at this level that they haven't had at all that might help becoming more competitive and experienced in future and raise the value of a player.

[Duketown]

In 1996/1997 you had 16 champions.
In 2017/2018 you have 18 champions + 14 “giants” to make the tournament competitive.

Would you rather not have these 14 “giants” and instead have 14 “domestic league first placed teams”?

So, no Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Tottenham, Manchester City, Roma, FC Porto, Paris Saint-Germain, Sevilla, Liverpool, Napoli, Sporting and CSKA Moscow?

And instead Slavia Prague, Viitorul Constanta, FC Salzburg, Rijeka, Legia Warsaw, BATE Borisov, Malmo, Rosenborg, Hapoel Beer-Sheva, FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Astana, Ludogorets and Zilina?

Most of these “domestic league first placed teams” are in the EL now, a competition where they have good chances to shine, instead of being everybody else’s punching bag.


:

Total bullshit.
You mean teams like Ajax, Feyenoord, Zagreb, celtic qnd the likes vs.so called giants villareal, Roma, Lyon. Only PL and Bundesliga teams are larger than those domestic champions but same goes for those so called giants.

And bring in those domestic champs and those clubs will bring in whole countries as fans. Give that uefa prize money to those huge clubs and sponsor will come the next day.

Secondary clubs from large countries aren't bigger than those domestic countries who will bring complete countries as fans.

[FR-Rinaldo]

In 1996/1997 you had 16 champions.
In 2017/2018 you have 18 champions + 14 “giants” to make the tournament competitive.

Would you rather not have these 14 “giants” and instead have 14 “domestic league first placed teams”?

So, no Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Tottenham, Manchester City, Roma, FC Porto, Paris Saint-Germain, Sevilla, Liverpool, Napoli, Sporting and CSKA Moscow?

And instead Slavia Prague, Viitorul Constanta, FC Salzburg, Rijeka, Legia Warsaw, BATE Borisov, Malmo, Rosenborg, Hapoel Beer-Sheva, FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Astana, Ludogorets and Zilina?

Most of these “domestic league first placed teams” are in the EL now, a competition where they have good chances to shine, instead of being everybody else’s punching bag.


:

Total bullshit.
You mean teams like Ajax, Feyenoord, Zagreb, celtic qnd the likes vs.so called giants villareal, Roma, Lyon. Only PL and Bundesliga teams are larger than those domestic champions but same goes for those so called giants.

And bring in those domestic champs and those clubs will bring in whole countries as fans. Give that uefa prize money to those huge clubs and sponsor will come the next day.

Secondary clubs from large countries aren't bigger than those domestic countries who will bring complete countries as fans.

Not only the prize money is one reason why regular Europa League teams will get further behind but also the award of bonus coëfficiënt points in the Champions League will make it almost impossible for many clubs and countries in Europa League to build up a good ranking for seeding purposes.

Plus allowing them to play in Champions League means they will play each other more in a competition where a win is awarded with more money and could lead to more coefficient points when advancing to later stages.