Battle for important ranking positions 2023-24

[amirbachar]

So btw, this year’s ranking proves how flawed the whole thing is. Italy didn‘t have a single team in the CL quarterfinals. Yet they are #1. No way.

The extra spot is for team number 5 in the league, the ECL and EL teams performance is actually much more indicative to who deserves it.

[greenbay]

The extra spot is for team number 5 in the league, the ECL and EL teams performance is actually much more indicative to who deserves it.

So a country that was completely wiped out from CL in R16 by their CL opponents, deserves an additional CL spot for their season's performance, because some of their even weaker non-CL teams have beaten some even weaker non-CL opponents?

[eye]

The extra spot is for team number 5 in the league, the ECL and EL teams performance is actually much more indicative to who deserves it.

So a country that was completely wiped out from CL in R16 by their CL opponents, deserves an additional CL spot for their season's performance, because some of their even weaker non-CL teams have beaten some even weaker non-CL opponents?

Of course and as I said such ranking would have been more correct if CL results were not included at all. The purpose of the ranking for the additional spots is actually to promote 2 clubs from EL-ECL to CL so they should be awarded to the 2 most successful countries at EL-ECL in order next CL to be more competive. Spain had 3 clubs at QFs of CL while Italy hadn't any but the next CL would be more competive if the 2 additional clubs have the performance of Roma, Atalanta or Fiorentina had this season than the performace Villareal, Betis or Osasuna had this season. It is like claiming that Scotland would deserve EPS if we had CL final of Celtic vs Rangers ignoring the fact that the rest 3 Scottish clubs at EL-ECL collected totally 8 points.

[ultra2013]

There should be only EPS in each competition, i.e. one EPS for each competition. Separated rankings. If your teams did well in Europa League then it is fair your league deserve an extra team there, or similarly in Intertoto. UEFA understood that is wrong to mix competitions. Now should do the same with rankings.

[Tazmania]

I still think 3 of the additional 4 places should have gone to the CLQ Champions Path increasing the number of champions qualifying via that path from 4 to 7 instead of from 4 to 5, after all usually 43 champions compete in that path.

Giving one place to N3 of 5th ranked country was correct; reducing the cliff-edge between 4th and 5th in the 5-year ranking.

[Sagy]

All those clubs listed above with negative performances would have big problems in the CL qualifications and most of them would certainly be eliminated in the qualifications. They are not top clubs in their respective leagues fighting for the championship title, therefore they are not untouchable.
All those third and lower placed clubs of the strongest leagues should be sent to the qualifiers, so let them prove that they deserve the GS CL. But those qualifications should be the Swiss system, so the luck of the draw plays a minimal role. Let's say 125 clubs in 5 strong groups according to UEFA rating. Each club plays 4 games with clubs outside its strong group, 2 at home, 2 away. The first 20 go to the CL, the second 20 to the EL, the third 36 to the ECL. You leave direct places in the CL to the champions and runners-up of the Top 5 countries, and to the champions of countries from 6-10 places, as well as the current winner of the CL. With the Swiss system, you protect all clubs from an unlucky draw, and even with one defeat, you can reach the CL with 9 points.

I like where you are going with this.

My concern is that 125 is too small a number and will really hurt lesser ranked countries in terms of how many teams they send to Europe.

Given some teams today have to play 8 games to get to league stage and many play 6 qualifying games, it is not unreasonable to have the new qualifying include 6 rounds as well. I would have 7 groups of 24 for a total of 168 teams in the “Swiss qualifying” each team plays six teams, one from each of the other groups. Each country gets the same allocation as today, non-champion from the lowest x countries have to play in pre-qualifying home and away to reduce the total number on teams in qualifying to 168. I think that next season we expect about 192 teams, if that is correct then 48 teams will have to pre-qualify. This means, if my math is correct, that non-champions from countries 35-55 (CW from 35-44 are given a pass) will have to participate in the pre-qualifying (which will be seeded based on club not country).

Q1 in UCOL next year will have 52 teams with countries 30-55 represented. This means that less teams will be eliminated after only two games while many teams will have a better opportunity to be placed in the “right” competition.

Following was based on an error in number of team taking place in qualifying

I don’t think that this change (37 vs 26 teams eliminated after 1 round, 2 games) is too drastic. If that is a problem, simply have the Swiss qualifying include 7 groups of 26 team for 6 games). This way the pre-qualifying includes only 46 team (only 23 teams eliminated after 1 round).

Apologies if the number of teams scheduled for next year is not 192, the numbers will be slightly different, but the concept is the same.

*** Edited to correct numbers

Do clubs like Hacken, Sheriff or Bačka Topola deserve to play GS EL this season? Or clubs like Bredablik, Čukarički or Trnava in GS ECL? They absolutely do not deserve GS with their quality, they serve as cannon fodder there. How do they get to GS? A privileged path for champions or a privileged direct place, or the crazy luck of the nockout draw.
The privileged path for champions should be abolished, it has brought nothing good, only injustice. A good part of the privileged direct places should be abolished. Instead of knockout qualifications, introduce qualifications using the Swiss system.
This is the right way to raise the quality and strength of all 3 UEFA leagues, if you want to give it an advantage to champions,then let it be privileged bonus points in Swiss qualifiers 1, 2 or 3.

If you accept my modification to the original idea, the benefits champions get is direct access to the “Swiss qualifying”, other clubs might need to play in the pre-qualifying round (depending on country ranking). The fact that every club in the qualifying plays 6 games (same as league stage today) puts the lower level teams in a better finanacial position than today and they still have a reasonable chance to advance and play in league play.

One concern might be is that a top league could get 7 or even 8 or 9 teams into the 36 team UCL (2 auto + 5 via Swiss qualifying + EPS + UCL+W) at this point, I’m willing to accept this risk. If it becomes a regular issue we could limit a country to 7 teams in UCL and 2 teams in UEL (all teams still play in Swiss qualifying just move a team down a tier if the country limit has been reached).

[babaluj1]

Top 5 leagues 2 places each directly at CL, 6.-10. liga each 1 direct place in the CL, plus 2 places from the Top 2 Country coefficient + current champion, that's a total of 18 places, we're looking for another 18. In the EL and ECL we directly place one club from Top 5 countries, all other clubs go to qualification. That's about 210 clubs in total,14 tems from Top 5 countries. We can give clubs with the best UEFA rating and the champions of countries from 11th to 20th place direct places in the qualification group of the Swiss system, which should not be more than 100 clubs. The remaining 110 clubs are eliminated in the two preliminary rounds.

[Sagy]

@babaluj1 you are on to something. To make it work the last team from the top 5 will go to ECL and next to last to EL. This means that teams 3 to n-2 will play in the Swiss qualifying. One could say that they are disadvantaged since they might miss on league stage. My counter are that if they can’t finish in the top 80 (18+31+31) teams they shouldn’t be playing in European league stage.

If I have time, I’ll create a proposed “qualifying scheme”

[Sagy]

Here is what it might look like

I gave the ECL winner direct access to EL so now only 79 teams will qualify for league stage (different from @babaluj1 proposal).

If CL-W or EL-W spots are not used then Country 10 and 11 will get direct access to CL and the next 2 or 4 CW will get access to the Swiss Qualifying.

I think that this is a system that everyone (even top 5 counties since they can get an extra team in UCL) might accept.

If having 46 teams eliminated after a single round is "too much" the Swiss qualifying can be adjusted from 7 seed groups of 24 teams to 7 seed groups of 26 teams and that will reduce the number of team in R1 to 64 teams (only 32 are eliminated after playing only two games)

[babaluj1]

Top 5 leagues 2 places each directly at CL, 6.-10. liga each 1 direct place in the CL, plus 2 places from the Top 2 Country coefficient + current champion, that's a total of 18 places, we're looking for another 18. In the EL and ECL we directly place one club from Top 5 countries, all other clubs go to qualification. That's about 210 clubs in total,14 tems from Top 5 countries. We can give clubs with the best UEFA rating and the champions of countries from 11th to 20th place direct places in the qualification group of the Swiss system, which should not be more than 100 clubs. The remaining 110 clubs are eliminated in the two preliminary rounds.

Normally, the eighth club of Italy and Germany directly in the ECL, the seventh directly in the EL, the 4th, 5th and 6th in the Swiss qualifications, the first 3 directly in the CL, etc.
Those would be super strong qualifications, stronger than today's EL because of the 14 clubs of League Five, and the whole mass of other clubs from which the best would emerge. Let's say in the first strong group Top 25, there would be mostly clubs around 1700 clubelo rating upwards, probably Portuguese, Dutch, Belgians, Turks, Czechs... There would be big surprises, I think at least 3 to 6 clubs from League Five would fail for CL.
First, one preliminary round is played from 101st according to UEFA rating to 210th, 55 clubs are eliminated. Then the winners of the first preliminary round play with the clubs from the 46th to the 100th place according to the UEFA rating, another 55 clubs are eliminated and 100 clubs are formed in 4 strong groups according to the Swiss qualification system. . 2 home games, 2 away games and you get a row, first 18 in CL, 19th to 48th in EL, 49th. until 78th in ECL, others out. Realistically, some good clubs from weak leagues would also go through 2 preliminary rounds, when you enter the Top 100, one win is enough to enter the ECL, with two wins the club is already in EL etc.

[Lorric]

For the largest 1-year Country coefficient, fewer clubs is an advantage, 8 clubs is disadvantage. Weaker clubs only destroy the average, this is evident last season in Germany, Koln took only 7 points in the ECL, unlike Bayern who took 27 points in the CL..
This season, Spain and England play with 8 clubs, Spain already lost to Osasuna in PO ECL, and in England clubs in CL are more successful than those in ECL and EL.
For the last 10 years, according to the Country coefficient, England and Spain regularly win as the 2 strongest leagues, but with 7 clubs. Now, with 8 clubs, they don't have much chance to finish in the Top 2, especially not the Spaniards, who have already lost one club in the qualifiers. I think that this season Italy and Germany, who play with 7 clubs, have the best chances for the Top 2 places according to the Country coefficient.

That is not so linear. It depends much of the club which is the next in line to play in european competitions. In England, it is common that one of the Big Six don't qualify for Europe, so it may be an advantage. In Spain, Sevilla was out of Europe this season, if they haven't won the EL (although last season the extra place wouldn't be enough for them). Have in mind the extra place will be a CL direct spot and not a CoL PO spot (in fact, having the ranking divided by 8 instead of 7 reduces the damages of an exit by the CoL participant). If we are talking of Germany (which was not in the question), then I think it will be mostly a disadvantage, as they haven't so many competitive clubs. For lower leagues, like the Portuguese or the Dutch, an extra place (even with the number of teams being inferior) will be almost surely a disadvantage.

I think overall odds are it will be a disadvantage, as not only do you have 8 teams, but teams get pushed up into tougher competitions, and there's no dropping down after the GS anymore either.

As for this season, I think there's a good chance we benefit from having 8 teams, as our extra team is West Ham. Last season, West Ham's 31.000 was second only to Manchester City's 33.000 out of all teams, not just English ones. Season before, West Ham got 21.000, which was exactly England's average. As long as they don't fall behind the average set by the other 7 English teams, then it's a benefit. West Ham look stronger than last season, and unlike their EL season 2 years ago, this time they get to start as a pot 1 team.

Even if Villa win their remaining games, they can't take England's coefficient above the 19.000 West Ham have earned. West Ham were indeed a benefit to our coefficient, but even with their help it's all but certain it won't be enough. West Ham, I salute you!

[naaba]

Do clubs like Hacken, Sheriff or Bačka Topola deserve to play GS EL this season? Or clubs like Bredablik, Čukarički or Trnava in GS ECL? They absolutely do not deserve GS with their quality, they serve as cannon fodder there. How do they get to GS? A privileged path for champions or a privileged direct place, or the crazy luck of the nockout draw.
The privileged path for champions should be abolished, it has brought nothing good, only injustice.

The Champions Path outside of CL is bullshit and unfair. Clubs that regularly play Europe and fight hard to earn coefficient points are unseeded in ECL-PO to make rooms for the likes of Zalgiris Vilnius or Breidablik. While Rapid Wien had to face Fiorentina and APOEL Nicosia drew Gent. It's even unfair for seeded Dynamo Kyiv that had to face Besiktas while FK Astana played Partizani Tirana...

[babaluj1]

Do clubs like Hacken, Sheriff or Bačka Topola deserve to play GS EL this season? Or clubs like Bredablik, Čukarički or Trnava in GS ECL? They absolutely do not deserve GS with their quality, they serve as cannon fodder there. How do they get to GS? A privileged path for champions or a privileged direct place, or the crazy luck of the nockout draw.
The privileged path for champions should be abolished, it has brought nothing good, only injustice.

The Champions Path outside of CL is bullshit and unfair. Clubs that regularly play Europe and fight hard to earn coefficient points are unseeded in ECL-PO to make rooms for the likes of Zalgiris Vilnius or Breidablik. While Rapid Wien had to face Fiorentina and APOEL Nicosia drew Gent. It's even unfair for seeded Dynamo Kyiv that had to face Besiktas while FK Astana played Partizani Tirana...

The Champions' Path was introduced by UEFA in order to get the votes of small countries whose clubs cannot possibly reach any GS UEFA leagues. This is compensation for filling the CL with direct spots for the Top 5 leagues. This is an absolutely wrong way that leads to injustice and uncompetitive clubs in all leagues and should be abolished as soon as possible.
The Swiss system of qualifications, something similar to how Sagy drew the scheme above, is much better and fairer. If it is desired to have more champions of smaller countries in the GS UEFA League, then they can be given 1 or 2 bonus points in the common qualifying group by the Swiss system.
In this way, we would get a stronger and more competitive CL, EL, and ECL. I believe that the 10 to 20 best clubs from the lower part of the Country ranking from 28th to 55th place would pass the two preliminaries, and then according to the Swiss system, only one win in 4 matches separates them from the ECL league.
It's a great system for all non-championships except for the Top 5 leagues that currently have direct spots.

[greenbay]

Almost perfect scenario for the Bundesliga this week. If I'm not entirely mistaken, the three German sides need combined 4 points from their six semi finals matches to clinch the 5th CL berth for next season. So even if none makes it to the finals, two wins are enough, maybe less if Villa and the French don't stay perfect. Crucial match of course is Dortmund vs PSG. A draw at home, a loss in Paris, and the task for Bayern and Leverkusen will even be reduced to one win combined or two draws combined in their four matches.

3 points combined needed from five remaining semi finals.