Hi Lyonnais (& others).
I have just completed an exercise whereby I have attempted to list all the teams to have played at the highest level of French league football from 1932 to date. I've excluded the war years where the competition was split by region and certain teams were excluded.
The exercise has raised a number of questions about the shared history (or not) of individual clubs. I guess many of the "questions" will have no real definitive answer (just different opinions) but I thought it would be interesting to list them here and see what the French posters (or anyone else with suitable knowledge thinks).
1. Toulouse. This seems to me to be two different clubs though on various rsssf listings it's down as one. The first merged with Red Star in 1967 and disappeared and a new club - US Toulouse was formed in 1970. This second club is the current Toulouse FC. I guess Toulouse fans think of this as a shared history though?
2. Troyes. I currently have this listed as one club with a number of different names but I have a feeling that the Troyes-Savigny (& other names) club is a different one to the current ATAC/ESTAC one formed in 1986?
3. Sedan. Again I have this listed as one club from the days of UA Sedan-Torcy despite the merger with RC Paris in 1966 and later swallowing of another small club - Mouzon.
4. Montpellier. I've followed the example of rsssf.com and listed SO Montpellier and the current Montpellier-Herault SC as distinct entities but reading wikipedia I'm not that convinced there's not a continuous one club history?
5. SC Nimes/Nimes Olympique. Fairly happy this is two different clubs though the latter seems to have been born at the same time as the demise of the former. A bit like Leeds City/Leeds United in England.
6. FC Brest-Armorique disappeared from Ligue 2 in 1991-92 but I guess the current Stade Brestois 29 is seen as the same club reborn?
7. Paris FC. A bit messy this but if I understand correctly this was a new club formed in 1969 which immediately merged with Stade Saint-Germain to form the well known PSG. Paris FC therefore didn't exist in 1970-71 or 71-72 but broke away from PSG in 1972 and retained the Ligue 1 spot. PSG dropped down a couple of divisions taking the brief history of the merged club with it and rising back to the top league within two years. Paris FC have changed names lots but basically stayed the same club formed in 1969 (with the two year gap already mentioned) to date.
8. Racing Club de France (the club known primarily as Racing Club de Paris during it's heyday). Again despite various mergers the old club formed in 1896 seems to be the same one playing today (relegated from level 4 last year). The main changes seems to be getting rid of the professional section in 1966 (with players going to Sedan?) and coming back in 1983 (players coming from Paris FC?).
9. Avignon. I assume Avignon Football 84 is essentially the same club that had one season at the top level in the 1975-76 season.
A supplementary question on Avignon. What level do they play at now? I know they play in the "Mediterranean" League but I'm not sure at what level. I guess below level 6 unless they were promoted last year?
10. Stade Francais & Red Star merged for a couple of years in 1948. Stade Francais seem to get credited with the two years of "shared history".
That'll do for starters!
One big surprise thrown up by my exercise. One of my favorite French teams (basically because I'd never really heard of them before and they were doing quite well a few years ago) has spent more seasons in the top flight than any other. Which club?
FC Sochaux-Montbeliard. Bet not many non-French readers would have guessed that!
French Football - esp. History & Team names - Help/Opini
Hi Badgerboy,
Trying to reply to your deep research
Believe it or not but I didn't find anyhting about the history of the club in the official website (http://www.tfc.info/index.php?template= ... cle_id=682).
However, as per L'Equipe, the club was founded in 1937 (http://lequipe.fr/Football/FootballFicheClub12.html). I thus guess that your interpretation was good.
One of the biggest achievement of the club in the last 20 years was the qualification in UEFA Cup vs. the great Napoli of Maradona.
In 2 words, as you mentioned, the first club was created in 1900, merged and changed name different times, but disappeared in 1979 (bankrupcy), meaning relegated to 5th division without professional status.
The club was taken over in 1986 by a new president and this is the official foundation date of the exisiting club. It was first called ATAC (Association Troyes Aube Champagne; Troyes=city, Aube=department, Champagne=region) but had to change the name in 2001 because ATAC was also the name of a brand of supermarkets. The new name is ESTAC (Esperance Sportive Troyes Aube Champagne).
In its recent history, the club had decent results with a coach you should know Alain Perrin. They won the intertoto then reached the second round of UEFA Cup beaten by Leeds United (4-2 2-3).
Although Sedan is a little city (pop. of 40,000) within a economically challenged area, the club has a prestigious history. They won 2 French Cups in the 50s. Roger Lemerre was one of their players in the 60s as well as the father of Yannick Noah.
Recently, the club did well reaching the 5th position in 2002 I believe.
Montpellier won the French Cup in 1990 and reached the quarters of CWC (losing to ManU). This club is famous for .. its President (strong character). Good youth academy too.
However L'Equipe says that the club was founded in 1937 and thus does not seem to recognize this (I wouldn't trust too much l'Equipe). It doesn't matter too much as the old SC Nimes didn't win anything, so there is no dispute about titles that could be claimed or not.
And to be honnest, Nimes is a bit known for not winning titles anyway. This club was excellent in the 50s and managed to finish 4 times second of the League but never won it (this is the French equivalent of Leverkusen!).
The club reached the French Cup final in 1996 being in the 3rd division and lost to Auxerre in extratime. Auxerre having made the double that year, they played the CWC, managed to beat a Hungarian club but lost to AIK Stockholm in second round.
official website: http://www.stade-brestois.com/historique.php
The club had a good team in the late 80s with players like Ginola, Le Guen, etc.
It also was the club of a rookie called Franck Ribery before he was targeted by Metz.
Your undertstanding is also mine but I didn't find any official website to support this.
To be honnest, I am too young to remember anything about any achievement of Paris FC.
Very strong history in the 50-60s when they were one of the best clubs in France, in competition with Reims. They won 2 titles as far as I remember and 5 Cups. Not bad at all. They were the club of Paris at that time.
Then, a very famous and rich business man Jean-Luc Lagardere (dead now, but his group led by his son is a key shareholder, among other, of EADS who builds Airbus) took over the club in the mid 80s to build the second club of Paris. It was first renamed Racing Paris 1, then Matra Paris. They bought some good players (the most famous being Luis Fernandez, Enzo Francescoli,etc.) and reached the final of the cup in 1990 (lost to Montpellier).
In spite of decent results, they never managed to have a real impact and build a strong base fan (average of 10-15,000 only) and it cost a lot of money to Lagardere who gave up in the early 90s. The club consequently lost its professional status and is more or less diying in lower divisions.
Red Star is currently struggling although they were known for having a good youth academy.
Red Star is located in St Denis and they played once in the Stade de France vs. St Etienne establishing the record audience in second division (around 55,000).
For those interested, the name of the club is in English. Why Red Star ? because St Denis and most cities of the north of Paris (department 93) are historically and are still the "red suburbs" (voting for the Communist Party).
Yes, Sochaux has a very strong history, but they didn't win so many titles (2 titles before the war, then the League Cup 2 or 3 years ago).
This club has long been owned by the Peugeot family, through Peugeot. I believe that they do not own it anymore but they obviously still very close to.
Club very well reputed for its youth academy and for .. the quality of the grass of the stadium (it was said to be the best in France).
Should you have additional questions, please feel free to ask
Trying to reply to your deep research
1. Toulouse. This seems to me to be two different clubs though on various rsssf listings it's down as one. The first merged with Red Star in 1967 and disappeared and a new club - US Toulouse was formed in 1970. This second club is the current Toulouse FC. I guess Toulouse fans think of this as a shared history though?
Believe it or not but I didn't find anyhting about the history of the club in the official website (http://www.tfc.info/index.php?template= ... cle_id=682).
However, as per L'Equipe, the club was founded in 1937 (http://lequipe.fr/Football/FootballFicheClub12.html). I thus guess that your interpretation was good.
One of the biggest achievement of the club in the last 20 years was the qualification in UEFA Cup vs. the great Napoli of Maradona.
The history of the club is documented in the official website. (http://www.estac.fr/club/historique). With google translation, you should have an acceptable explanation in English.2. Troyes. I currently have this listed as one club with a number of different names but I have a feeling that the Troyes-Savigny (& other names) club is a different one to the current ATAC/ESTAC one formed in 1986?
In 2 words, as you mentioned, the first club was created in 1900, merged and changed name different times, but disappeared in 1979 (bankrupcy), meaning relegated to 5th division without professional status.
The club was taken over in 1986 by a new president and this is the official foundation date of the exisiting club. It was first called ATAC (Association Troyes Aube Champagne; Troyes=city, Aube=department, Champagne=region) but had to change the name in 2001 because ATAC was also the name of a brand of supermarkets. The new name is ESTAC (Esperance Sportive Troyes Aube Champagne).
In its recent history, the club had decent results with a coach you should know Alain Perrin. They won the intertoto then reached the second round of UEFA Cup beaten by Leeds United (4-2 2-3).
This club was officially founded in 1919. As per the official website (http://www.cssedan.com/v3/club/histoire.shtml), "the merger with Racing was hopefully avoided in 1966". In 1970, the historical name (Union Athetique Sedan Torcy) was changed into Club Sportif Sedan Ardennes (CSSA) which is the current name. The website doesn't really explain why.3. Sedan. Again I have this listed as one club from the days of UA Sedan-Torcy despite the merger with RC Paris in 1966 and later swallowing of another small club - Mouzon.
Although Sedan is a little city (pop. of 40,000) within a economically challenged area, the club has a prestigious history. They won 2 French Cups in the 50s. Roger Lemerre was one of their players in the 60s as well as the father of Yannick Noah.
Recently, the club did well reaching the 5th position in 2002 I believe.
The official website (http://www.mhscfoot.com) doesn't really explain the history of the club. However, I can tell you that Montpellier-Herault SC (formely Paillade Montpellier) was founded in 1974 and is different from the old SO Montpellier.4. Montpellier. I've followed the example of rsssf.com and listed SO Montpellier and the current Montpellier-Herault SC as distinct entities but reading wikipedia I'm not that convinced there's not a continuous one club history?
Montpellier won the French Cup in 1990 and reached the quarters of CWC (losing to ManU). This club is famous for .. its President (strong character). Good youth academy too.
As per the official website, the old SC Nimes created in 1901 changed its name in 1937 to become the current Nimes Olympique. http://www.nimesolympique.fr/textes/club.html5. SC Nimes/Nimes Olympique. Fairly happy this is two different clubs though the latter seems to have been born at the same time as the demise of the former. A bit like Leeds City/Leeds United in England.
However L'Equipe says that the club was founded in 1937 and thus does not seem to recognize this (I wouldn't trust too much l'Equipe). It doesn't matter too much as the old SC Nimes didn't win anything, so there is no dispute about titles that could be claimed or not.
And to be honnest, Nimes is a bit known for not winning titles anyway. This club was excellent in the 50s and managed to finish 4 times second of the League but never won it (this is the French equivalent of Leverkusen!).
The club reached the French Cup final in 1996 being in the 3rd division and lost to Auxerre in extratime. Auxerre having made the double that year, they played the CWC, managed to beat a Hungarian club but lost to AIK Stockholm in second round.
Yes good guess. The club was relegated for bankrupcy but the "new" renamed club inherited from the history of the old one.FC Brest-Armorique disappeared from Ligue 2 in 1991-92 but I guess the current Stade Brestois 29 is seen as the same club reborn?
official website: http://www.stade-brestois.com/historique.php
The club had a good team in the late 80s with players like Ginola, Le Guen, etc.
It also was the club of a rookie called Franck Ribery before he was targeted by Metz.
the history of Parisian clubs is generaly extremely messy given the number of mergers, splits, changes in names, etc.7. Paris FC. A bit messy this but if I understand correctly this was a new club formed in 1969 which immediately merged with Stade Saint-Germain to form the well known PSG. Paris FC therefore didn't exist in 1970-71 or 71-72 but broke away from PSG in 1972 and retained the Ligue 1 spot. PSG dropped down a couple of divisions taking the brief history of the merged club with it and rising back to the top league within two years. Paris FC have changed names lots but basically stayed the same club formed in 1969 (with the two year gap already mentioned) to date.
Your undertstanding is also mine but I didn't find any official website to support this.
To be honnest, I am too young to remember anything about any achievement of Paris FC.
No official website for this one too and I believe that they currently face with strong financial problems (although they do not have anymore the professional sttatus).8. Racing Club de France (the club known primarily as Racing Club de Paris during it's heyday). Again despite various mergers the old club formed in 1896 seems to be the same one playing today (relegated from level 4 last year). The main changes seems to be getting rid of the professional section in 1966 (with players going to Sedan?) and coming back in 1983 (players coming from Paris FC?).
Very strong history in the 50-60s when they were one of the best clubs in France, in competition with Reims. They won 2 titles as far as I remember and 5 Cups. Not bad at all. They were the club of Paris at that time.
Then, a very famous and rich business man Jean-Luc Lagardere (dead now, but his group led by his son is a key shareholder, among other, of EADS who builds Airbus) took over the club in the mid 80s to build the second club of Paris. It was first renamed Racing Paris 1, then Matra Paris. They bought some good players (the most famous being Luis Fernandez, Enzo Francescoli,etc.) and reached the final of the cup in 1990 (lost to Montpellier).
In spite of decent results, they never managed to have a real impact and build a strong base fan (average of 10-15,000 only) and it cost a lot of money to Lagardere who gave up in the early 90s. The club consequently lost its professional status and is more or less diying in lower divisions.
another club of Paris. You're tough with me. I don't know much about them. Red Star is by far the most prestigious of the 2. They won few French Cups in the 50s if i'm not wrong and maybe before the war too and played a long time in second division.10. Stade Francais & Red Star merged for a couple of years in 1948. Stade Francais seem to get credited with the two years of "shared history".
Red Star is currently struggling although they were known for having a good youth academy.
Red Star is located in St Denis and they played once in the Stade de France vs. St Etienne establishing the record audience in second division (around 55,000).
For those interested, the name of the club is in English. Why Red Star ? because St Denis and most cities of the north of Paris (department 93) are historically and are still the "red suburbs" (voting for the Communist Party).
This one was easier, at least for a Frenchman.One of my favorite French teams (basically because I'd never really heard of them before and they were doing quite well a few years ago) has spent more seasons in the top flight than any other. Which club?
FC Sochaux-Montbeliard
Yes, Sochaux has a very strong history, but they didn't win so many titles (2 titles before the war, then the League Cup 2 or 3 years ago).
This club has long been owned by the Peugeot family, through Peugeot. I believe that they do not own it anymore but they obviously still very close to.
Club very well reputed for its youth academy and for .. the quality of the grass of the stadium (it was said to be the best in France).
Should you have additional questions, please feel free to ask
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
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viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
Well, I have one. It's been "bugging" me for a long time. Looking at the standings of Ligue 1, Ligue 2 and National, I noticed something that is not found anywhere else in Europe (probably even World): no two teams from the same city in the first 3 leagues! How come? Giving the size of the cities in France I find this intriguing.
OK, you were first Executor 
.
Poor Lyonnais: that's what comes if you offer to help someone.
I also have a question. In fact 2 questions:
1) I'm doing a research on the history of FC Bruges. And since France isn't that far away, they played a lot of their international friendlies against French teams.
I was wondering if you could give me some more information on the following teams (if they still exist, what league they were in,...):
- AS Alfortvillaise
- ICAM Lille (can you tell me what ICAM means?)
- UA 16ème arr. Paris
I can't blame you if you don't know a thing about these clubs , but i thought: the guy is French, so maybe...
2) The second question is more a general question concerning language. A lot of my sources are French (well, let's say Belgian French), but i noticed that it is easier to read French from the beginning of the 20th century than the French of the 60's or 70's. I was wondering if that's normal, because in Dutch you almost need a dictionary to read something from 1900-1940. Maybe it's just me
.
.Poor Lyonnais: that's what comes if you offer to help someone.
I also have a question. In fact 2 questions:
1) I'm doing a research on the history of FC Bruges. And since France isn't that far away, they played a lot of their international friendlies against French teams.
I was wondering if you could give me some more information on the following teams (if they still exist, what league they were in,...):
- AS Alfortvillaise
- ICAM Lille (can you tell me what ICAM means?)
- UA 16ème arr. Paris
I can't blame you if you don't know a thing about these clubs
, but i thought: the guy is French, so maybe...2) The second question is more a general question concerning language. A lot of my sources are French (well, let's say Belgian French), but i noticed that it is easier to read French from the beginning of the 20th century than the French of the 60's or 70's. I was wondering if that's normal, because in Dutch you almost need a dictionary to read something from 1900-1940. Maybe it's just me
.FC Bruges - KVK Tienen
Love my way, it's a new road
Love my way, it's a new road
There are 2 factors:Executor wrote:Well, I have one. It's been "bugging" me for a long time. Looking at the standings of Ligue 1, Ligue 2 and National, I noticed something that is not found anywhere else in Europe (probably even World): no two teams from the same city in the first 3 leagues! How come? Giving the size of the cities in France I find this intriguing.
- the League forbids a city with a population lower than 50,000 to have 2 professional clubs. As a result, Gazelec Ajaccio for example was prevented some few years ago to go to Ligue 2 (professional status becomes compulsory at that level) because AC Ajaccio was already in League 2 at that time.
It's an old and bit weird rule, but basically the League believes that having 2 professional clubs in a small city is not sustainable and tried to force the 2 clubs of Ajaccio to merge (as far as I remember, it didn't happen and Gazelec almost lost everything afterwards - players left and the club was relegated).
Almost the same thing happened in the 90s to Lyon-La Duchere whose promotion to Ligue 2 was denied by the League because they believe that their Business Plan was not sustainable.
- the second factor, and the most important one is more related to the French football history, which is certainly not comparable to the big nations. No tradition, no money, no infrastructure really until the early 70s (the Parc des Princes was built in 1972).
As a result, when professional football was expanding in the 50s, all local clubs decided or were forced to merge to be able to survive. In most cases, public authorities who subsidied professional football pushed to get only one local club rather than supporting few extremely fragile local clubs.
Before the war, Marseille excepted, all big names in French professional football were from small cities. Sete, Cannes, Antibes, Sochaux, etc. Cities like Lyon, Nice, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Strasbourg did not exist really.
They were only 2 exceptions: Lille and Paris.
Lille had some great local clubs (Roubaix, Fives and the old Lille Olympique) but as explained above they finally were forced merged in the 50s to create the current Lille OSC.
Paris had a lot of local clubs, such as RC Paris, which remains one of the most titled club in France, Red Star, etc... They all struggled in the 60s, one of the darkest period for French professional football. As a result, all efforts were concentrated on the newly created PSG to restore professional football in Paris in the early 70s.
And as explained in the previous post, efforts to create a second club in Paris failed (RC Paris becoming Matra Paris in the 80s).
Only the Paris area can really afford having numerous local clubs providing in my humble opinion that these clubs really represent a district and not really try to compete with PSG to get the leadership.
Creteil (eastern Paris) is playing in Ligue 2, whereas Entente SSG (northern Paris) and Paris FC (playing in Stade Charletty in Paris) are in National (level 3). Their fan base is however minimal and they all struggle financially speaking. I don't really expect them to become big powers of French football in a foressenable future, but time will tell.
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
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the guy is French but he's ignorant.modano wrote:
1) I'm doing a research on the history of FC Bruges. And since France isn't that far away, they played a lot of their international friendlies against French teams.
I was wondering if you could give me some more information on the following teams (if they still exist, what league they were in,...):
- AS Alfortvillaise
- ICAM Lille (can you tell me what ICAM means?)
- UA 16ème arr. Paris
I can't blame you if you don't know a thing about these clubs
Modano, I have no idea about these clubs. It looks like, Alfortville excepted, that these clubs were students clubs. I don't know that school, but I would guess that ICAM means Institut C (?) des Arts et Metiers. Prestigious PhDs.
I don't know much eitherThe second question is more a general question concerning language. A lot of my sources are French (well, let's say Belgian French), but i noticed that it is easier to read French from the beginning of the 20th century than the French of the 60's or 70's. I was wondering if that's normal, because in Dutch you almost need a dictionary to read something from 1900-1940. Maybe it's just me
I would suggest that like any language, French is evolving every day with new words and new expressions. You might have learnt some academic French, certainly more "pure" from a grammatical and vocabular perspective. As a result, you might find it easier to read "old" documents than more recent ones. Just a guess
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
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viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
Thanks Lyonnais for your detailed and very rapid response!
Some more thoughts of my own. I've not responded to the replies where I've nothing left to say!
1. Toulouse
2. Troyes
Looking at the website link which you gave me here I think I'd probably now want to conclude this was three clubs rather than two! The first club dying in either 1967 or 1970 (that's where my French falls down!), the second lasting only from 1970 to 1979 and the third coming about in 1986.
I think this is a good example though of the difference between "technical or legal" history and "moral" history. If you've lived in Troyes and followed professional football (when it's existed in the town) since the 1960s you probably consider you've been following one and the same club. I guess different football historians (and statisticians) take different views and in most cases can be "technically" right or wrong but not "morally" right or wrong.
4. Montpellier.
5. Nimes
"It doesn't matter too much as the old SC Nimes didn't win anything, so there is no dispute about titles that could be claimed or not".
But it does matter if you want to say how many seasons a team has spent in the top flight - or at any other level for that matter. Like I said before not a hugely important question and one probably open to different interpretations (as the two rsssf.com listings show on at least one occasion) but I like to be as accurate as possible...
9. Avignon
I just realised you missed that one out
Especially interested in where they play now. I even went to the official site of the new club and couldn't quite work out what league they are in!
I think that's it for follow ups on my original thread. I will have some additional "do you know why this happened" questions later but will pause for breath for now!
Some more thoughts of my own. I've not responded to the replies where I've nothing left to say!
1. Toulouse
I think you misread my original post but I decided this was two clubs. The original disappeared in a merger with Red Star in 1967 and a new one - US Toulouse was formed in 1970. I base this mostly on the wikipedia entry here though I realise pretty much anyone can write these articles so the accuracy might not always be 100%. I read enough French to get a reasonable gist of what's being said (as long as the writer doesn't throw in a cunning word that completes changes the meaning of a sentence that is!).However, as per L'Equipe, the club was founded in 1937 (http://lequipe.fr/Football/FootballFicheClub12.html). I thus guess that your interpretation was good.
2. Troyes
Looking at the website link which you gave me here I think I'd probably now want to conclude this was three clubs rather than two! The first club dying in either 1967 or 1970 (that's where my French falls down!), the second lasting only from 1970 to 1979 and the third coming about in 1986.
I think this is a good example though of the difference between "technical or legal" history and "moral" history. If you've lived in Troyes and followed professional football (when it's existed in the town) since the 1960s you probably consider you've been following one and the same club. I guess different football historians (and statisticians) take different views and in most cases can be "technically" right or wrong but not "morally" right or wrong.
4. Montpellier.
This agrees with the two rsssf.com records of top league seasons that I used to check my own stats here and here but the wikipedia article here simply has SO Montpellier absorbing Sport-Club in 1970 and then merging with l'AS Paillade in 1974 changing the name on each occasion. Personally, I'd interpret this as the "daddy" club simply carrying on and absorbing a couple of smaller clubs along the way. Then again I consider the two pre-war Lille clubs to have ceased to exist on their merger to morm LOSC Lille Metropole in 1944 so possibly I'm being inconsistent with my own interpretations!However, I can tell you that Montpellier-Herault SC (formely Paillade Montpellier) was founded in 1974 and is different from the old SO Montpellier.
5. Nimes
I'd actually see the official website as agreeing with L'Equipe: "70 ans de passion de rouge et blanc...", "cree en 1937". I guess the second paragraph in the history is saying that in reality it's a continuation of the old club? I must admit initially I read the "n" in "n'est que" as turning the sentence into a negative. "In reality it's not a continuation" but there's no "pas" so I suddenly realise I'm not sure of the meaning of the "n".As per the official website, the old SC Nimes created in 1901 changed its name in 1937 to become the current Nimes Olympique. http://www.nimesolympique.fr/textes/club.html
"It doesn't matter too much as the old SC Nimes didn't win anything, so there is no dispute about titles that could be claimed or not".
But it does matter if you want to say how many seasons a team has spent in the top flight - or at any other level for that matter. Like I said before not a hugely important question and one probably open to different interpretations (as the two rsssf.com listings show on at least one occasion) but I like to be as accurate as possible...
9. Avignon
I just realised you missed that one out
Especially interested in where they play now. I even went to the official site of the new club and couldn't quite work out what league they are in! I think that's it for follow ups on my original thread. I will have some additional "do you know why this happened" questions later but will pause for breath for now!
I think the point about prohibiting 2 clubs from same town is very interesting; also I was astonished; I knew nothing of it. For example, it is an interesting comment on the 'derbies' thread running directly below this - you will only get 'local' derbies, not 'same city' ones.
So also we see in practice that the evolution of French club football that even in towns and cities over 50k population, there are not 2 or more teams.
I wonder if this has anything to do with causing the strength in depth of the French league?
So also we see in practice that the evolution of French club football that even in towns and cities over 50k population, there are not 2 or more teams.
I wonder if this has anything to do with causing the strength in depth of the French league?
Badgerboy > fully agree that merger of clubs is always pretty confusing when you want to make some historical stats. There is no generally accepted rule to deal with these cases meaning that everybody can understand what they want.
The war period is also source of disputes. Do these titles count like other titles ? In the first years, France was divided into 3 zones, the "free zone" in the south, the "occupied zone" in the north and the "forbidden zone" in the very north in Lille area (not to speak about Alsace-Lorraine who were part of Germany). At that time clubs from the Lille metro area were the strongest and it's just a guess but I presume that it is very likely that they were not allowed to play competitions (and with which players anyway?). How can these titles can count ? What's the value of these titles ?
At the end of the war, the whole France was obviously occupied and a championship was organized with teams representing a region. As far as I know a team called Lens-Artois won the title or the cup and some Lens fans, good friends of mine by the way and usually pretty interesting , still claim the title, whereas for me it is obvious that this was not RC Lens but another team. Anyway.
Avignon plays in 'Division d'Honneur' which represents the 6th level in France
By the way I am very impressed not only by your research but also by your interest in these clubs history.
Panda: the rule of preventing 2 professional teams in small cities looks like really weird, fully agree, but to be honnest, it has not been applied very often. I'm even wondering if Gazelec has been not the first victim since ages.
To my point of the view, it didn't really affect history of French clubs football.
The very big difference with the other top-5 nations is that Marseille excepted, professional football originally emerged in (very) small cities. I don't really know why. Certainly simply because nobody was really interested in football which favoured initiatives in the small cities who could get some success.
As a result, French professional was pretty weak. After the war, local authorities started to understand the benefit of subsiding clubs to get more exposure at national level and most clubs from the big cities thus emerged after the war. However, as explained before, for obvious reasons they just subsidied the biggest club only and forced all other local clubs to merge in order to create a stronger club at local level. This is the key reason why you don-t have clubs from the same city in France in my humble opinion.
The situation of Paris is different. This is the only sizeable city where local clubs could have competed (at least 2, maybe 3) but it didn't work. They all failed to survive in the 60s whereas they had by far the biggest potential fan base and for some of them a prestigious history.
I have a personal explanation. It is amazing to notice that a lot of people living in Paris and enjoying living in Paris will never really consider themselves as Parisians but feel like they have some roots and links to their local area even if they have been living in Paris for many years (personaly I went to Paris to work in 1993 but i will never admit that I am a Parisian although I like this city and certainly more than Lyon; I am a Lyonnais living in Paris which is very different )
As a result, Parisian clubs never really created this feeling of ownership that could have helped emerge.
PSG was created in the early 70s with the strong support of public authorities who wanted a local club in the new Parc des Princes. However it is funny to notice that PSG was almost playing all time away in their own stadium as most of the audience (95% of Parisians) were supporting their local club visiting Paris. The Britons, large community in Paris, took the opportunity to support Nantes, the Corsicans, another large community, the opportunity to support Bastia, etc.
It lasted until the mid-80s when PSG started to win titles and thus managed to create their own identity and history.
The war period is also source of disputes. Do these titles count like other titles ? In the first years, France was divided into 3 zones, the "free zone" in the south, the "occupied zone" in the north and the "forbidden zone" in the very north in Lille area (not to speak about Alsace-Lorraine who were part of Germany). At that time clubs from the Lille metro area were the strongest and it's just a guess but I presume that it is very likely that they were not allowed to play competitions (and with which players anyway?). How can these titles can count ? What's the value of these titles ?
At the end of the war, the whole France was obviously occupied and a championship was organized with teams representing a region. As far as I know a team called Lens-Artois won the title or the cup and some Lens fans, good friends of mine by the way and usually pretty interesting
, still claim the title, whereas for me it is obvious that this was not RC Lens but another team. Anyway. Avignon plays in 'Division d'Honneur' which represents the 6th level in France
By the way I am very impressed not only by your research but also by your interest in these clubs history.
Panda: the rule of preventing 2 professional teams in small cities looks like really weird, fully agree, but to be honnest, it has not been applied very often. I'm even wondering if Gazelec has been not the first victim since ages.
To my point of the view, it didn't really affect history of French clubs football.
The very big difference with the other top-5 nations is that Marseille excepted, professional football originally emerged in (very) small cities. I don't really know why. Certainly simply because nobody was really interested in football which favoured initiatives in the small cities who could get some success.
As a result, French professional was pretty weak. After the war, local authorities started to understand the benefit of subsiding clubs to get more exposure at national level and most clubs from the big cities thus emerged after the war. However, as explained before, for obvious reasons they just subsidied the biggest club only and forced all other local clubs to merge in order to create a stronger club at local level. This is the key reason why you don-t have clubs from the same city in France in my humble opinion.
The situation of Paris is different. This is the only sizeable city where local clubs could have competed (at least 2, maybe 3) but it didn't work. They all failed to survive in the 60s whereas they had by far the biggest potential fan base and for some of them a prestigious history.
I have a personal explanation. It is amazing to notice that a lot of people living in Paris and enjoying living in Paris will never really consider themselves as Parisians but feel like they have some roots and links to their local area even if they have been living in Paris for many years (personaly I went to Paris to work in 1993 but i will never admit that I am a Parisian although I like this city and certainly more than Lyon; I am a Lyonnais living in Paris which is very different
)As a result, Parisian clubs never really created this feeling of ownership that could have helped emerge.
PSG was created in the early 70s with the strong support of public authorities who wanted a local club in the new Parc des Princes. However it is funny to notice that PSG was almost playing all time away in their own stadium as most of the audience (95% of Parisians) were supporting their local club visiting Paris. The Britons, large community in Paris, took the opportunity to support Nantes, the Corsicans, another large community, the opportunity to support Bastia, etc.
It lasted until the mid-80s when PSG started to win titles and thus managed to create their own identity and history.
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
Lyonnais
Essentially, I like making lists. If I have anything I'd call a "hobby" that's probably it. I've obviously done the same exercise for the English League (though the whole thing not just Premier League) and have recently done the same for the Spanish Primera Liga.
I start with the lists then find I want to know a bit more about the "stories" behind the pure "statistics". Particularly when I come across historic clubs that I know nothing about and also clubs that have been more successful historically than I was previously aware of.
I have a few more questions (working back in time) about promotion/relegation anomalies.
1. Actually a point not a question. I was amazed to discover that when Marseille were relegated in 1993-94 following the match-fixing scandal they were still allowed to play in the 1994-95 UEFA Cup. For some reason I didn't know that!
2. Any idea why Toulon (relegated in 1992-93) didn't play Ligue 2 in 1993-94?
3. What happened to Bordeaux, Nice and Brest after the 1990-91 season? Were their relegations for financial (or other) reasons?
4. Similarly to Toulon, Racing Paris 1 didn't appear in Div. 2 after their relegation in 1989-90.
5. A real obscure one this but I noticed in the promotion play-off system in force from 1983-84 to 1992-93 the 2nd placed teams always had home advantage in the one-leg "first round" matches. But in 1986-87, according to rsssf.com, Cannes (3rd) played at home to Caen (2nd). Cannes ended up being promoted!
6. Gueugnon won Div. 2 in 1978-79 but weren't promoted.
7. What exactly was the play-off system from 1963-1970. Each of the 4 teams involved played 4 matches. Was that two matches against each team from the other division and none against the one from the same?
8. Any idea why Rouen were relegated following the 1969-70 season and why following the expansion of Ligue 1 for 1970-71 Reims (4th in Ligue 2) were promoted rather than Avignon (3rd and then last in the play-off league)?
9. Your own club now (though a long time ago!). Any idea why they were relegated in 1945-46 and how they (plus Reims & Bordeaux) wangled a spot in Ligue 1 for that season after being non-existent, and 6th and 11th respectively in the last pre-war season?
The "no more than one team per town/city" rule is indeed very interesting and the fact that in bigger cities (where presumably the rule isn't the deciding factor) one club has evolved to dominate. Lille is obviously one example - Lyon another - where FC Lyon appears to have been happily swallowed up (at least as regards professional teams) by Olympique.
It's an incredible contrast to the situation in the UK where "city rivalry" is one of the key elements (to many fans possibly THE key element) of the game and why I find the thought of any "Euroleague" superceding the domestic game so unlikely.
Essentially, I like making lists. If I have anything I'd call a "hobby" that's probably it. I've obviously done the same exercise for the English League (though the whole thing not just Premier League) and have recently done the same for the Spanish Primera Liga.
I start with the lists then find I want to know a bit more about the "stories" behind the pure "statistics". Particularly when I come across historic clubs that I know nothing about and also clubs that have been more successful historically than I was previously aware of.
I have a few more questions (working back in time) about promotion/relegation anomalies.
1. Actually a point not a question. I was amazed to discover that when Marseille were relegated in 1993-94 following the match-fixing scandal they were still allowed to play in the 1994-95 UEFA Cup. For some reason I didn't know that!
2. Any idea why Toulon (relegated in 1992-93) didn't play Ligue 2 in 1993-94?
3. What happened to Bordeaux, Nice and Brest after the 1990-91 season? Were their relegations for financial (or other) reasons?
4. Similarly to Toulon, Racing Paris 1 didn't appear in Div. 2 after their relegation in 1989-90.
5. A real obscure one this but I noticed in the promotion play-off system in force from 1983-84 to 1992-93 the 2nd placed teams always had home advantage in the one-leg "first round" matches. But in 1986-87, according to rsssf.com, Cannes (3rd) played at home to Caen (2nd). Cannes ended up being promoted!
6. Gueugnon won Div. 2 in 1978-79 but weren't promoted.
7. What exactly was the play-off system from 1963-1970. Each of the 4 teams involved played 4 matches. Was that two matches against each team from the other division and none against the one from the same?
8. Any idea why Rouen were relegated following the 1969-70 season and why following the expansion of Ligue 1 for 1970-71 Reims (4th in Ligue 2) were promoted rather than Avignon (3rd and then last in the play-off league)?
9. Your own club now (though a long time ago!). Any idea why they were relegated in 1945-46 and how they (plus Reims & Bordeaux) wangled a spot in Ligue 1 for that season after being non-existent, and 6th and 11th respectively in the last pre-war season?
The "no more than one team per town/city" rule is indeed very interesting and the fact that in bigger cities (where presumably the rule isn't the deciding factor) one club has evolved to dominate. Lille is obviously one example - Lyon another - where FC Lyon appears to have been happily swallowed up (at least as regards professional teams) by Olympique.
It's an incredible contrast to the situation in the UK where "city rivalry" is one of the key elements (to many fans possibly THE key element) of the game and why I find the thought of any "Euroleague" superceding the domestic game so unlikely.
Well, there is 1 year difference between French and UEFA sanctions.1. Actually a point not a question. I was amazed to discover that when Marseille were relegated in 1993-94 following the match-fixing scandal they were still allowed to play in the 1994-95 UEFA Cup. For some reason I didn't know that!
Marseille was immediately banned from European competitions (season 1993-94), whereas the French federation wanted the trial to be closed before taking sanctions. That's the reason why OM was relegated at the end of the season 1993-94 only, i.e. one year after the scandal.
Should OM be banned another year from UEFA competitions (they finished 2nd of the League and thus were eligible for the UEFA Cup) ? i don't know.
bankrupcy, meaning either automatic relegation to the lower level or, in worst case, denial of professional status and then automatic relegation the the third level.2. Any idea why Toulon (relegated in 1992-93) didn't play Ligue 2 in 1993-94?
This is what happened to Toulon (second case).
relegation for financial reasons.3. What happened to Bordeaux, Nice and Brest after the 1990-91 season? Were their relegations for financial (or other) reasons?
same cause (no more professional status when Matra left the club), same effects.4. Similarly to Toulon, Racing Paris 1 didn't appear in Div. 2 after their relegation in 1989-90.
at that time, Division 2 was divided into 2 groups of 18 teams. Both winners were promoted to Division 1. Teams ranked 2nd and 3rd played relegation playoffs.5. A real obscure one this but I noticed in the promotion play-off system in force from 1983-84 to 1992-93 the 2nd placed teams always had home advantage in the one-leg "first round" matches. But in 1986-87, according to rsssf.com, Cannes (3rd) played at home to Caen (2nd). Cannes ended up being promoted!
1)2nd of group A vs. 3rd of group B (and vive-versa): KO game played on the pitch of the 2nd.
2) 2 winners play a two-leg game to decide who gets promoted.
I don't remember why Cannes played at home vs. Caen that year.
they simply refused to get promoted because they had to get professional status and the club was afraid of doing so (Gueugnon really is a small city, not to say a village, in the midle of nowhere).6. Gueugnon won Div. 2 in 1978-79 but weren't promoted.
I believe that they missed that decisions long years and when they finally got a second chance in the years 2000, they didn't miss it that time. They unfortunately were not able to stay in Ligue 1.
no idea7. What exactly was the play-off system from 1963-1970. Each of the 4 teams involved played 4 matches. Was that two matches against each team from the other division and none against the one from the same?
I'm too young.
no idea.8. Any idea why Rouen were relegated following the 1969-70 season and why following the expansion of Ligue 1 for 1970-71 Reims (4th in Ligue 2) were promoted rather than Avignon (3rd and then last in the play-off league)?
OL was founded in 1950. I believe that the club relegated in 1945-46 was FC Lyon.9. Your own club now (though a long time ago!). Any idea why they were relegated in 1945-46 and how they (plus Reims & Bordeaux) wangled a spot in Ligue 1 for that season after being non-existent, and 6th and 11th respectively in the last pre-war season?
It's just a guess but after the war, verything was more or less pretty messy and the League took the opportunity to rebuild the full thing and certainly awarded some wild cards to the big cities to enable them to play at the top level.
Another factor maybe: the merger of various little clubs might have left some available spots in D1. I don't know really.
agree with you. Personally I don't believe in a creation of a super European League that would replace domestic leagues. That doesn't seem to me sustainable.It's an incredible contrast to the situation in the UK where "city rivalry" is one of the key elements (to many fans possibly THE key element) of the game and why I find the thought of any "Euroleague" superceding the domestic game so unlikely.
Local rivalry indeed is a key part of the game, because it's not anymore a football game. It's not anymore your team who wins or loses, it's you (as an individual). Maybe.
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
Lyonnais.
Thanks again!
Interesting. So, as an Olympique Lyon fan you don't consider this as one of "your" seasons or for OL to have a pre-1950 history? The wikipedia entry has Lyon Olympique (formed in 1899) and changing their name to Lyon Olympique Universitaire in 1911. This club and FC Lyon were definitely big local rivals in the early 20th century. FC Lyon is said to have merged with LOU in 1934-35 with LOU rejoining the professional ranks in 1942. "FC Lyon quickly regained their independence but were happy to remain amateurs". Olympique Lyonnais seems to have been born directly from LOU.
I see that the official website only credits the club with Palmares since 1950 while the Wikipedia entry gives it the earlier Lyon Olympique stuff too. This entry indicates that the "formation" of OL in 1950 was due to a split between the football and rugby sections of LOU. The former took on the new name and the latter was banned from football for two years and then created a brand new club, still playing locally today.
I'll copy the next bit in the original French in case I'm getting the writer's meaning wrong:
" Cette section football LOU «2» ne peut en aucun cas prétendre récupérer l'histoire et les honneurs glanés par le LOU «1».
À noter : «Lyon fondé en 1950» est l'un des grands classiques de l'historiographie du foot français... Certains évoquent un dépôt de bilan pour expliquer la fracture de 1950, mais pas de trace de dépôt de bilan à Lyon en 1950... L'histoire est plus sulfureuse, avec un des épisodes de la guerre football-rugby (voir plus haut) entrainant le départ de la section football d'une structure omnisports. Dans ces cas, il n'y a pas « fondation » de club. C'est la section football qui seule compte ici et elle poursuit son existence sous un autre nom. C'est en vérité bien moins problématique que certaines fusions..."
So, again it seems there is no one agreed version of history...
Thanks again!
Actually the 2 winners played a two-leg to decide who played the 18th team in Ligue 1 (again over two legs) and the winner either stayed up or was promoted. I'm sure you knew that already and just omitted it but just in case any "casual readers" are passing...at that time, Division 2 was divided into 2 groups of 18 teams. Both winners were promoted to Division 1. Teams ranked 2nd and 3rd played relegation playoffs.
1)2nd of group A vs. 3rd of group B (and vive-versa): KO game played on the pitch of the 2nd.
2) 2 winners play a two-leg game to decide who gets promoted.
.OL was founded in 1950. I believe that the club relegated in 1945-46 was FC Lyon
Interesting. So, as an Olympique Lyon fan you don't consider this as one of "your" seasons or for OL to have a pre-1950 history? The wikipedia entry has Lyon Olympique (formed in 1899) and changing their name to Lyon Olympique Universitaire in 1911. This club and FC Lyon were definitely big local rivals in the early 20th century. FC Lyon is said to have merged with LOU in 1934-35 with LOU rejoining the professional ranks in 1942. "FC Lyon quickly regained their independence but were happy to remain amateurs". Olympique Lyonnais seems to have been born directly from LOU.
I see that the official website only credits the club with Palmares since 1950 while the Wikipedia entry gives it the earlier Lyon Olympique stuff too. This entry indicates that the "formation" of OL in 1950 was due to a split between the football and rugby sections of LOU. The former took on the new name and the latter was banned from football for two years and then created a brand new club, still playing locally today.
I'll copy the next bit in the original French in case I'm getting the writer's meaning wrong:
" Cette section football LOU «2» ne peut en aucun cas prétendre récupérer l'histoire et les honneurs glanés par le LOU «1».
À noter : «Lyon fondé en 1950» est l'un des grands classiques de l'historiographie du foot français... Certains évoquent un dépôt de bilan pour expliquer la fracture de 1950, mais pas de trace de dépôt de bilan à Lyon en 1950... L'histoire est plus sulfureuse, avec un des épisodes de la guerre football-rugby (voir plus haut) entrainant le départ de la section football d'une structure omnisports. Dans ces cas, il n'y a pas « fondation » de club. C'est la section football qui seule compte ici et elle poursuit son existence sous un autre nom. C'est en vérité bien moins problématique que certaines fusions..."
So, again it seems there is no one agreed version of history...
I think that the situation of Lyon is more clear than it primary looks like. It is really generally accepted that OL was founded in 1950. This is at least the official version of Olympique Lyonnais.
As explained in the article you have copied, the historical club LOU (Lyon Olympique Universitaire) split into a rugby section and a football section in 1950. The football section became Olympique Lyonnais and the "LOU" remained and still is a rugby club (our President has the project to support it to make it become a power in rugby - the club has been playing between 2nd and 3rd level in the previous years).
Some might argue that the spin-off is technically not the date of foundation of the club, it might be technically true, maybe not, anyway but I believe that the official version (birth of the club in 1950) is acceptable. The football section of the LOU was not a big power in French football anyway (a semi-final of the cup in the 20s ? something like that).
As explained in the article you have copied, the historical club LOU (Lyon Olympique Universitaire) split into a rugby section and a football section in 1950. The football section became Olympique Lyonnais and the "LOU" remained and still is a rugby club (our President has the project to support it to make it become a power in rugby - the club has been playing between 2nd and 3rd level in the previous years).
Some might argue that the spin-off is technically not the date of foundation of the club, it might be technically true, maybe not, anyway but I believe that the official version (birth of the club in 1950) is acceptable. The football section of the LOU was not a big power in French football anyway (a semi-final of the cup in the 20s ? something like that).
Don't forget to post your predictions for the new season
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580
viewtopic.php?p=563580#p563580