2024/25 access list

including formats, draws, seedings, etc.
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bert.kassies
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Post by bert.kassies »

eye wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:03 @bert.kassies I want to ask you few questions because I can't understand how they are planning the rebalancing based on the regulations.

1) UEFA published a rebalanced access list at regulations and the only change at CL's access list is that CHs of Sweden and Poland were promoted to Q2. Based on which paragraph of CL regulations has this done?

2) At 3.11 of EL regulations is stated "In the event of any other vacancies, and further knock-on effects in the UEFA Conference League, priority is given to the best ranked club(s) or the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League) of the association ranked highest in the access list for the previous round of the corresponding path." I find this paragraph pointless when they don't explain when the priority is at the highest ranked club and when the priority is at CW. Forgetting the pointless comment which are the possible other vacancies at EL that were not covered from ECL-W rebalancing? The only missing spots I can see is when CL-W and/or EL-W has/have qualified domestically at EL and I am not even sure if these cases aren't considered knock-on effects of CL. So if they are reffering at these cases which club has priority? Are there any other possible vacancies?
@eye, for the definitive answer to your questions you have to ask UEFA. How should I know :grin1:

Before the regulations were published I learned that there are now 2 types of rebalancing: direct and indirect. Which I tried to explain at the bottom of https://kassiesa.net/uefa/2024-rebalanc ... nking.html

The ban on Russian clubs is clearly indirect rebalancing since no title holder is involved. It must be CL art. 3.06 and EL art. 3.11 which try to decribe this, but do so rather poorly.

If clubs in a certain round are eligible for rebalancing then CW always have priority. And if say N2 and N3 are in the same round, then N2 has priority over N3. These articles have nothing to do with club ranking.
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eye
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Post by eye »

bert.kassies wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 13:24
eye wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:03 @bert.kassies I want to ask you few questions because I can't understand how they are planning the rebalancing based on the regulations.

1) UEFA published a rebalanced access list at regulations and the only change at CL's access list is that CHs of Sweden and Poland were promoted to Q2. Based on which paragraph of CL regulations has this done?

2) At 3.11 of EL regulations is stated "In the event of any other vacancies, and further knock-on effects in the UEFA Conference League, priority is given to the best ranked club(s) or the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League) of the association ranked highest in the access list for the previous round of the corresponding path." I find this paragraph pointless when they don't explain when the priority is at the highest ranked club and when the priority is at CW. Forgetting the pointless comment which are the possible other vacancies at EL that were not covered from ECL-W rebalancing? The only missing spots I can see is when CL-W and/or EL-W has/have qualified domestically at EL and I am not even sure if these cases aren't considered knock-on effects of CL. So if they are reffering at these cases which club has priority? Are there any other possible vacancies?
@eye, for the definitive answer to your questions you have to ask UEFA. How should I know :grin1:

Before the regulations were published I learned that there are now 2 types of rebalancing: direct and indirect. Which I tried to explain at the bottom of https://kassiesa.net/uefa/2024-rebalanc ... nking.html

The ban on Russian clubs is clearly indirect rebalancing since no title holder is involved. It must be CL art. 3.06 and EL art. 3.11 which try to decribe this, but do so rather poorly.

If clubs in a certain round are eligible for rebalancing then CW always have priority. And if say N2 and N3 are in the same round, then N2 has priority over N3. These articles have nothing to do with club ranking.
Of course you cant know for sure, I just asked because you are the most experienced of us on the club competitions.

Your explanation for direct and indirect rebalancing is clear the regulations are not though.

3.06 of CL regulations "In the event of any other vacancies, and further knock-on effects in the UEFA Europa League and/or UEFA Conference League, priority is given to the best ranked club(s) in the UEFA Champions League or the domestic cup winner(s) in the UEFA Europa League and/or UEFA Conference League (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League) of the association ranked highest in the access list for the previous round of the corresponding path.".

I am not sure if the above article is about the ban of Russian clubs because priority is given to the best ranked clubs and rebalanced access list is based on country ranking so my feeling is that the rebalanced access list is probably one of the cases that UEFA board takes the decision. It seems to me that this article exists only for the clubs of Q1ch and Q2nc which will not have pair due to TH rebalancing and they want to promote the highest ranked club to next round.

As for 3.11 of EL it doesn't even make sense as article when it doesn't explain at which case best ranked club is used and at which case country ranking is used. Even worse at 3.09c and 3.10b it is clearly stated that CW(s) from ECL will be moved to EL-Q1 in order to have the correct amount of pairs when we have rebalancing cause of ECL-W. So the only reason I can think for having this article is when CL-W and/or EL-W qualified domestically to EL and spot isn't used but it is unclear what kind of rebalancing should be applied.
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bert.kassies
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Post by bert.kassies »

Maybe you need different highligths on art. 3.06: "In the event of any other vacancies ... priority is given to the best ranked club(s) ... of the association ranked highest in the access list for the previous round of the corresponding path."

"Best ranked clubs of an association" can only refer here to domestic league ranking (with an exception for cup winners).
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Post by eye »

That's how I had understood it first but then I though what's the point of using best ranked club when at ch path all clubs are champions and at nc path all countries have 1 participant so I guessed best rank was about club ranking
Does this also mean that if Dortmund wins CL and gets EL spot from league or/and Roma or Atalanta wins EL and gets EL spot from league that N4 of Netherlands will move to Q3?
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bert.kassies
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Post by bert.kassies »

I still think that no club will be promoted from EL-Q2 to EL-Q3, although the regulations only say so in the case of direct rebalancing (CO title holder related).
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Post by eye »

bert.kassies wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 15:28 I still think that no club will be promoted from EL-Q2 to EL-Q3, although the regulations only say so in the case of direct rebalancing (CO title holder related).
Exactly and and it is logical. Maybe they will change this part of relegation too :D
One more issue though. Based on CL regulations if less that 3 clubs drop from CL-Q2 to EL-Q3 only cup winners take part at rebalancing. There weren't any CWs though at EL-Q2. Now due to the ban of Russian clubs NOR-CW is at EL-Q2. Do you think that NOR-CW can be promoted to Q3 or all indirect rebalancing will be done from beginning and NOR-CW will remain at Q2?
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bert.kassies
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Post by bert.kassies »

eye wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 16:13
bert.kassies wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 15:28 I still think that no club will be promoted from EL-Q2 to EL-Q3, although the regulations only say so in the case of direct rebalancing (CO title holder related).
Exactly and and it is logical. Maybe they will change this part of relegation too :D
One more issue though. Based on CL regulations if less that 3 clubs drop from CL-Q2 to EL-Q3 only cup winners take part at rebalancing. There weren't any CWs though at EL-Q2. Now due to the ban of Russian clubs NOR-CW is at EL-Q2. Do you think that NOR-CW can be promoted to Q3 or all indirect rebalancing will be done from beginning and NOR-CW will remain at Q2?
Yeah, not even Nor-CW. Unless there are no other options, like they did with CL-Q4 during the covid-19 pandemic.
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Post by TommyChat »

What will happen if Fiorentina wins ECL and finish 8th? Previously they moved two clubs from ECL Q2 to Q3 but since this season no clubs are starting in CoLQ3 could they move 8 clubs from Q1 to Q2?
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Post by dnina10 »

TommyChat wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 10:05 What will happen if Fiorentina wins ECL and finish 8th? Previously they moved two clubs from ECL Q2 to Q3 but since this season no clubs are starting in CoLQ3 could they move 8 clubs from Q1 to Q2?
I'm going to do a thread on this soon, but in short, there would be no TH rebalancing
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Post by eye »

TommyChat wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 10:05 What will happen if Fiorentina wins ECL and finish 8th? Previously they moved two clubs from ECL Q2 to Q3 but since this season no clubs are starting in CoLQ3 could they move 8 clubs from Q1 to Q2?
If my understanding is correct the access list will be rebalanced in every competition based on the access list without taking account the EPS. Then the highest ranked club in of a top2 league that is not at CL-LP will get the EPS, the spot of that club that won EPS will be given to the next highest club of league and so on. THs will be skipped at this procedure because they may end at lower competition (eg Fiorentina as ECL-W can't replace 7th of league which gets ECL spot) and only exception will be if ECL-W gets the EPS

When there are 3 different types of rebalancing the order of them is important. The logical should have been first to award EPS, then have TH rebalancing when needed and then rebalancing based on country ranking if needed. UEFA is doing at exactly the opposite order and this may create some insane results
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Post by TommyChat »

So if Fiorentina finish 8th or lower and wins ECL Italy will have 9 teams in Europe anyway?
In case of them ending up 8th, then the 9th placed team goes to ECL?
Same logic as if Dortmund win UCL and finish 5th (and/or Atalanta/Roma UEL), then 6th goes to UCL?
It's funny that all 3 can still happen.
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Post by amirbachar »

TommyChat wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 15:10 So if Fiorentina finish 8th or lower and wins ECL Italy will have 9 teams in Europe anyway?
In case of them ending up 8th, then the 9th placed team goes to ECL?
Same logic as if Dortmund win UCL and finish 5th (and/or Atalanta/Roma UEL), then 6th goes to UCL?
It's funny that all 3 can still happen.
Exactly
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Post by Sagy »

eye wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 14:37
TommyChat wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 10:05 What will happen if Fiorentina wins ECL and finish 8th? Previously they moved two clubs from ECL Q2 to Q3 but since this season no clubs are starting in CoLQ3 could they move 8 clubs from Q1 to Q2?
If my understanding is correct the access list will be rebalanced in every competition based on the access list without taking account the EPS. Then the highest ranked club in of a top2 league that is not at CL-LP will get the EPS, the spot of that club that won EPS will be given to the next highest club of league and so on. THs will be skipped at this procedure because they may end at lower competition (eg Fiorentina as ECL-W can't replace 7th of league which gets ECL spot) and only exception will be if ECL-W gets the EPS

When there are 3 different types of rebalancing the order of them is important. The logical should have been first to award EPS, then have TH rebalancing when needed and then rebalancing based on country ranking if needed. UEFA is doing at exactly the opposite order and this may create some insane results
Agreed that the order of rebalancing is important.

If you subscribe to the idea that the purpose of EPS spot is to reward leagues that show depth (I do), then EPS last makes sense since it will ensure that under all conditions, leagues that earn EPS will always get an extra spot in CL and that extra spot will be reflected in the total team the league has in European competitions. If you change the order, there are cases (e.g., Dortmund winning UCL and finishing 5th) in which country that won EPS will not get the extra spot (Dortmund will get the EPS and the UCL-W spot will go unused).
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Post by TommyChat »

So, a more unlikely scenario which also lead to CoL PO vacancy:
If Marseille win EL and finish 7th with PSG CW, will 8 clubs be moved from CoL Q1 to Q2??
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Post by angel_87 »

Italy second in the UEFA ranking, for the first time after almost 20 years (a circumstance that has not occurred precisely since 2006) :applause:

England – 104,303 points
Italy – 89,426 points
Spain – 89,239 points
Germany – 86,338 points
France – 66,831 points
:applause:

--clearly news that has an impact on the 2025/26 European cups--
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