What do you believe in?

[EarlofBug]

It's not that people jump of a cliff 1000 times and then get wings, but 1000 people jump off a clif and the one with wings survive (and thus continue to evolve)

Well animals are said to have evolved certain physical aspects over time, because they needed those aspects to live.

This idea of things evolving in a certain way by themselves because they needed to, is problematic though.

If you see a device, a piece of machinery or something, and beside that device there is a book with blank pages, you may not be able to use the device, since there are no instructions for it. It would help quite a lot for you to had instructions explaining how to use the device (let's say that it is very complex and you need instructions to know how to work it). Now let's say I told you, leave the device and the empty instruction manual alone, and in a few million years there are going to be instructions written in that manual. They'll write themselves, because the device and the empty book know that people need an instruction manual to be able to use the device. You'd probably tell me that I was insane. You'd tell me waiting a million years, or 50 million years, or however million years, won't make any instructions appears in the book, unless somebody actually comes and physically writes it in.

That is not how evolution works. Do you have a "natural" manual book for something that we (as humans) did not create and write ourself?

[Polak]

Who is responsible for disasters and diseases? Do you blame god for those things? If there is a creator, might he be a sadistic one?

This would require a deep dive into a theological discussion. Not sure you would be interested in the possible reasons why God does or allows for certain things to happen, if you can't even wrap your head around there being a God.

That is not how evolution works.

Oh excuse me, please give me your explanations of evolution to me then.

[EarlofBug]

Who is responsible for disasters and diseases? Do you blame god for those things? If there is a creator, might he be a sadistic one?

This would require a deep dive into a theological discussion. Not sure you would be interested in the possible reasons why God does or allows for certain things to happen, if you can't even wrap your head around there being a God.

Isn't this a theological topic? I learned the old testament quite well, from elementary school to high school. I wrapped my mind around it many times, and I understand quite well the concept of god and why people think it exists.
I would like to read your thoughts about this - If you thought that your creator had malicious intentions, how would you react?

That is not how evolution works.

Oh excuse me, please give me your explanations of evolution to me then.

About evolution, it works the same for all living things, from viruses, bacteria, ameba and plants to whales.
Changes occur wildly, without control and over time in the genetic matter, because of radiation, etc. If the new living being is better suited for the environment, for procreation, it will flourish. If not, it will die.
We saw some types of animals go extinct...

[Ricardo]

We see evolution working hard now with Corona. There is an a, b, c variation and we try to control it. And when we think we did it, there is a new evolution variation, d, that manages to survive again where the other variations slowly get diminished.
If this would be the end state, in 1 million years the a,b and c would be long forgotten, and we wonder how it is possible that there exists such a specific variation that is just exactly what’s needed to survive. That’s evolution
If tall strong men are Favorit to the ladies(human or animal), they find a mate, while the short one doesn’t and so does not have offspring.
If elements of a species find easier food or can defend themselves better, they are the ones that survive and get children (with that same dna-glitch) and so the whole species will (slowly) move to all having that gen. That’s evolution

[Polak]

I would like to read your thoughts about this - If you thought that your creator had malicious intentions, how would you react?

This is where religion actually helps. In my case, it's Christianity. It explains that suffering is kind of written into our existence on earth, although not necessarily into our existence in eternity. It's never nice to see when people are suffering, but we also believe no suffering is pointless. Some people (many saints for example) even saw it as a grace, and actually wanted to suffer as much as possible for Christ, although that's hard to understand for your average Joe now, I know, because people often look at life in terms of, 'how much pleasure can I get from it, for me'.

Perhaps there needs to be a certain amount of suffering in the world, for it to keep spinning? Jesus cleansed things by offering himself on the cross for us, but since then, people have continued to sin (a lot), so suffering continues. That's the theological view anyway.

I remember once watching a video of a guy who had a near death experience. He had suffered serious burns in a house fire as a teenager, and even lost a couple of his family members in it. He was on the operating table, in so much pain he was just hoping to die, and he flatlined for a while. During that he said he experienced God, and that everything, all the suffering he had just gone through and was still going through, suddenly in an instant, made complete sense to him. He said it during an interview he did and it's a shame he didn't go into more detail as to how, but that's what he said he felt. Perhaps that's why to us, some of the awful things that happen are never going to make sense here in this world, but in another realm, once we're out of here, we'll understand?

About evolution, it works the same for all living things, from viruses, bacteria, ameba and plants to whales.
Changes occur wildly, without control and over time in the genetic matter, because of radiation, etc. If the new living being is better suited for the environment, for procreation, it will flourish. If not, it will die.
We saw some types of animals go extinct...

That's great. So you more or less know how it works, now can you explain why it works in such a way? Why does life born in the sky have wings for example? How does it form those wings? I know, you'll say evolution right? But how can evolution be? Isn't the very idea of evolution magical mystical? If you saw it happening in quick speed in front of you, rather than other billions of years, you'd think it was magic. What set all of this in motion? How did we get from nothing at all, to things evolving?

We see evolution working hard now with Corona. There is an a, b, c variation and we try to control it. And when we think we did it, there is a new evolution variation, d, that manages to survive again where the other variations slowly get diminished.
If this would be the end state, in 1 million years the a,b and c would be long forgotten, and we wonder how it is possible that there exists such a specific variation that is just exactly what’s needed to survive. That’s evolution
If tall strong men are Favorit to the ladies(human or animal), they find a mate, while the short one doesn’t and so does not have offspring.
If elements of a species find easier food or can defend themselves better, they are the ones that survive and get children (with that same dna-glitch) and so the whole species will (slowly) move to all having that gen. That’s evolution

Great, it's a fascinating cycle isn't it? As I asked Earlofbug, how did we get to such a complex state of life evolving and two mates creating more life, from complete nothingness? You see to me, no matter how many billions of years you wait, going from point A, complete nothingness, to point B, two people fall in love, marry and create a 3rd person, is somewhat unbelievable to have 'just happened', 'just because'. From nothingness, to people creating music, poetry, and other magnificent works of art, it's an equation so improbable it's actually unbelievable. Unless, God.

Anyway look, EarlofBug and Ricardo, I've found in life that generally, most people who don't believe, won't believe. They've made up their minds. They don't believe in the supernatural. Perhaps you are those types of people. Even if miracles happened right in front of you, you'd try to find some way of explaining it that isn't supernatural. So why should God grant you miracles, if you would just try to explain them away? So I'm not going to waste too much time trying to convince you here. Personally I think you'd both be better off having faith and believing in God, but if you prefer to go with the idea that we're just here by chance, and in millions of years this planet, or even this solar system, will be gone, and there will just be some planets flying around suns in various solar systems, in various galaxies, in space, with no particular purpose, that's up to you. Perhaps you prefer to believe that, perhaps you feel freer that way, like you don't have to adhere to any 'rules' of some God. I believe, and many people much smarter than both you and I, also believe. Just because somebody is very smart and knows how things work, doesn't mean he can't believe in God. So I have no problem with your lack of faith. If you don't believe you don't believe. It's your problem, not mine. Perhaps one day something will happen in your lives that you'll believe, or perhaps no matter what happens, you still won't? What I have a problem with, and I'm not saying that you are like this, is those who think 'smart' people are too intelligent to believe in God. That's an idea that is pushed often, and I don't like it.

[EarlofBug]

When I know how something works, I don't call it a miracle or magic. As I believe that there is a logical explanation for everything, I don't call anything a miracle or magic, even if I don't know how it works. I don't believe that there is 'Supernatural' world.

If you didn't know how some human created technology works, you'd think it's magic. People showing and talking on screen? Talking to people from the other side of the world through some device? how is it possible? If you show it to someone who never saw such things, he would think that's magic.
I remember that when we were children, I went with a friend to the swimmingpool. Near the toilets, there was an electric 'eye', that flushed the water automatically. My friend thought that it was magic (we were around 10 yeras old).
Would you call television as a magical instrument? What about a computer? Is it magical?

[Polak]

As I believe that there is a logical explanation for everything, I don't call anything a miracle or magic, even if I don't know how it works.

Yeah so you're confirming what I said. Even if something completely unexplainable by any physical reasons happened, you wouldn't call it a miracle, just something you don't know how to explain. Hence, why should a miracle happen to you? You won't believe it anyway. In some sense, you don't deserve a miracle, because you don't have even an ounce of faith in you.

But you haven't really addressed any of my points. Allow me to just ask you to address one. I've asked it before.

You don't believe in the supernatural, or that God is the beginning of everything. So, what was at the beginning? How did things even start?

[EarlofBug]

You don't believe in the supernatural, or that God is the beginning of everything. So, what was at the beginning? How did things even start?

I don't know, so I can't give you the answer for this. Yet, although I don't know, I don't assume that there is something 'magical' or 'supernatural' about it. These things relate to children imo.

Would you assume that a machine is magical or miraculous because you don't know how it works? Like children that watch magician tricks?
When the European (Spanish or Portuguese to be exact) came to America, some of the native people there thought of them to be gods.

Are phones, televisions and computers magical instruments? Talking to people from the other side of the world through a box, that's quite miraculous or at least magical, isn't it? I wonder if you'd call it magical instruments, and if not, why?
If I'm getting a wound, and my body heals itself, is that a miracle? because that happens all the time to people and to animals

[Ricardo]

A man sailed over the ocean when he came in a storm. His boat went under, but the man survived it with his lifejacket. It was cold, no food or water..
a ship came near ‘we’re here to rescue you’. ‘No thanks I believe in God, he will rescue me’. And so the ship went away again.
Another ship came the next day. ‘We’re here to rescue you’.’No thanks, I believe in god. He will rescue me. And also that ship went away again…
And so the man died waiting to be rescued by god.

He arrived at heavens gate, and asked angry at God: ‘I needed your help, why didn’t you save me?’
Upon which God answered ‘I sent 2 ships……..’

[EarlofBug]

A man sailed over the ocean when he came in a storm. His boat went under, but the man survived it with his lifejacket. It was cold, no food or water..
a ship came near ‘we’re here to rescue you’. ‘No thanks I believe in God, he will rescue me’. And so the ship went away again.
Another ship came the next day. ‘We’re here to rescue you’.’No thanks, I believe in god. He will rescue me. And also that ship went away again…
And so the man died waiting to be rescued by god.

He arrived at heavens gate, and asked angry at God: ‘I needed your help, why didn’t you save me?’
Upon which God answered ‘I sent 2 ships……..’

I know this joke with an airplane...
But seriously, what does it mean? Is everything that happens is a miracle? If my bus is on time and I'm getting to work on tume? If I'm finding a dime on the street, is that a miracle? If the electricity is working and the lights go on when I'm coming home, and the water on the toilet flushes, is that a miracle?
If everything that happens is a miracle, it takes out the substance from the word 'miracle'.

Now I'm going back to the 'god of the gaps'. If I didn't know how phone works, how television works, how X-ray works, how microwave works, how antibiotics works, etc. you get what I mean, I would think that all of those are miracles.
If I didn't know how earth is spinning around itself, and how the weather works, it would seem very plausible that god is rising and sinking the sun everyday, and creating rain, lightnings, diseases, etc.
Because I have knowledge, I don't consider these things as miracles. I don't need a 'supernatural force' to be involved in order to understand the world.
It isn't about smartness, it's about knowledge.

On a note, if I'm looking at the universe like someone who believes in creationism, thinking what is this creator, I come to the conclusion that it's not a benevolent one (holocaust, diseases, etc). If my father would have abused me, I wouldn't have respected his orders.

[Polak]

I don't know, so I can't give you the answer for this. Yet, although I don't know, I don't assume that there is something 'magical' or 'supernatural' about it.

So you admit you don't know how everything began, but basically, you choose to believe something too. You believe something came out of nothing. Even though no one has shown you any proof of how this is possible, because everything we know of has a cause, you have chosen to believe that something popped out of nothing, a very long time ago.

Would you assume that a machine is magical or miraculous because you don't know how it works? Like children that watch magician tricks?
When the European (Spanish or Portuguese to be exact) came to America, some of the native people there thought of them to be gods.

Are phones, televisions and computers magical instruments? Talking to people from the other side of the world through a box, that's quite miraculous or at least magical, isn't it? I wonder if you'd call it magical instruments, and if not, why?
If I'm getting a wound, and my body heals itself, is that a miracle? because that happens all the time to people and to animals

Not quite sure what your point is here. It seems you are proving my point actually. We know that machines, phones, televisions etc. have been designed by someone. We wouldn't assume they just are, and do the things they do, with a certain purpose, just because.

As for bodies being able to heal, I do believe that to be quite miraculous actually, just like human beings and other creatures being able to give life to another. It's just, they are common miracles that we are used to, so we don't think much of them.

Because I have knowledge, I don't consider these things as miracles.

You make the mistake of thinking knowledge is somehow a counter argument to God. That God has given us knowledge so that we can explain how things work, isn't an argument against him. Intelligent life is actually a strong argument for God.

On a note, if I'm looking at the universe like someone who believes in creationism, thinking what is this creator, I come to the conclusion that it's not a benevolent one

That's a different debate, about if you believe God is benevolent or not.

A man sailed over the ocean when he came in a storm. His boat went under, but the man survived it with his lifejacket. It was cold, no food or water..
a ship came near ‘we’re here to rescue you’. ‘No thanks I believe in God, he will rescue me’. And so the ship went away again.
Another ship came the next day. ‘We’re here to rescue you’.’No thanks, I believe in god. He will rescue me. And also that ship went away again…
And so the man died waiting to be rescued by god.

He arrived at heavens gate, and asked angry at God: ‘I needed your help, why didn’t you save me?’
Upon which God answered ‘I sent 2 ships……..’

Yes I know this story, or variations of it. God gives people the intelligence to help other people. That's why prayer is good, but if you're ill, see a doctor. God isn't always going to help you directly. Sometimes he also wants you to use the 'tools' in the world to help yourself.

[EarlofBug]

We know that machines, phones, televisions etc. have been designed by someone. We wouldn't assume they just are, and do the things they do, with a certain purpose, just because.

My point is - that if I didn't know how it works, I might have considered them as miraculous, magical instruments. Because I know how it works, I don't consider it miraculous or magical.

If I didn't know how phone works, how television works, how X-ray works, how microwave works, how antibiotics works, etc. you get what I mean, I would think that all of those are miracles.
If I didn't know how earth is spinning around itself, and how the weather works, it would seem very plausible that god is rising and sinking the sun everyday, and creating rain, lightnings, diseases, etc.

[Polak]

Yeah I understand what you're saying that if you didn't know how things worked you'd think it might be God, but because you know how things work you don't need it to be God. I was making my own separate point though, about design.

[bugylibicska]

“If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness.”

A phrase carved into a concentration camp cell by a Jewish prisoner.

[ignjat63]

Polak reminds me of Jehovahs wirtnesses.