Austria, Football Season 2019/20

[krdel]

FAC has no debts to Klagenfurt...

Well, actually it has, they played "normally" in Klagenfurt just two weeks ago. The only sporting thing to do is to play the same also in the last match, especially if you know how important it is. But I think that federation cannot penalise them, as they did not break any rule.

However I think it is a disgrace that they will keep Wattens instead of promoting Austria Klagenfurt.

And how can Rapid II get promoted?????
They are again breaking rules.
"Teilnahmeberechtigt am Bewerb der zweithöchsten Spielklasse der BL sind max. drei BL1-Amateur-Mannschaften."
https://www.oefbl.at/oefbl/bestimmungen/hpybet-2--liga/

Who will replace them in Regionalliga Ost?

[Meister Ether]

And how can Rapid II get promoted?????
They are again breaking rules.
"Teilnahmeberechtigt am Bewerb der zweithöchsten Spielklasse der BL sind max. drei BL1-Amateur-Mannschaften."
https://www.oefbl.at/oefbl/bestimmungen/hpybet-2--liga/

Who will replace them in Regionalliga Ost?

Simply because Salzburg's "Liefer-Ring" does not count officially as a second team. They are declared independent and officially even Anif from third tier aren't RB's second team anymore. Same as well with FC Juniors OÖ, who have been part of a club collective with FC Pasching but since 2018-19 are - officially - a seperate entity. But its common sense that Juniors and Liefer-Ring are blatant farm teams. At this point, Austria as a whole seems very well a bit of a Balkans nation, not just Vienna.

In the first place Rapid II applied for a license to promote but then the abandonement happened and they finished second. So they got a second chance now.
I think there won't be any replacement in Regionalliga Ost and the league just has 14 teams this season.

[Club-Mate]

nothing done yet from FA in Austria to put FAC at least into a question mode. As they have almost no money what I guess and the rules do not allow some punishment. The ethic commission could be called up what A. Klagenfurt wants to. I would suggest the following: for the next matches esp. against A. Klagenfurt they should wear shirts with the following inscription:

WE ARE LAGGARDS WE ARE FINE WIR STELLEN NIEMANDEN EIN BEIN!

niemanden ein Bein stellen = not to put a spoke in sb's wheel or not to trip sb up.

[max_m]

Hello guys, whats the current situation with Rapid Wiena? They had some positive COVID players.

[Club-Mate]

Hello guys, whats the current situation with Rapid Wiena? They had some positive COVID players.

last week one player positiv another one before that (no symptoms) but the latest test now proved all negativ. That's important as the player has to be in homequarantine for 10 days.

[Club-Mate]

And how can Rapid II get promoted?????
They are again breaking rules.
"Teilnahmeberechtigt am Bewerb der zweithöchsten Spielklasse der BL sind max. drei BL1-Amateur-Mannschaften."
https://www.oefbl.at/oefbl/bestimmungen/hpybet-2--liga/

Who will replace them in Regionalliga Ost?

Simply because Salzburg's "Liefer-Ring" does not count officially as a second team. They are declared independent and officially even Anif from third tier aren't RB's second team anymore. Same as well with FC Juniors OÖ, who have been part of a club collective with FC Pasching but since 2018-19 are - officially - a seperate entity. But its common sense that Juniors and Liefer-Ring are blatant farm teams. At this point, Austria as a whole seems very well a bit of a Balkans nation, not just Vienna.

In the first place Rapid II applied for a license to promote but then the abandonement happened and they finished second. So they got a second chance now.
I think there won't be any replacement in Regionalliga Ost and the league just has 14 teams this season.

originally until 2009/10 two Junior teams (Salzburg 2 and Austria Wien 2) played in 2. Liga. Then the FA came to the stupid idea to prohibit these so called Farmteams to play in 2.Liga and punished them to their displeasure into Regionalliga. After that Red Bull Salzburg founded FC Liefering to give young talented players a better platform to develop their skills. Immediately they promoted to 2. Liga and since 2013/14 they are always in the top group of the league. More and more pressure came from some other clubs esp. from Austria Wien to allow again Junior teams in 2. Liga as it proved to be the best league to develop younger players. Consequently FA changed the rules and the number of clubs to 16 for Liga 2 and since 2018/19 Junior teams from BL (obviously max. 3) were allowed again if they win RL or the winner of RL does not get license and then the next one is able to promote.
Presently 3 "Farmteams" play in 2. Liga:
FC Liefering as a registered club under patronance of Red Bull, FC Juniors OÖ as a cooperation from former club Pasching and LASK and Young Violets as a Junior team from Austria Wien. Rapid II as a Junior team from Rapid Wien applied for 2. Liga. Rapid 2 in my opinion can be promoted as FC Juniors OÖ and FC Liefering are legally own clubs and Rapid 2 and Austria 2 are just a junior team from them otherwise we'll change the rules again to the exact wording in the rule. All these teams are not allowed to promote to Bundesliga.
If a repair of rules will lead to a positive result for the interest of all members, if this is "Balkan nation" so I wish to have even more "Balkan" here. Only basic freedoms rights must stand at all time.
Btw what is Liefer-Ring?? a new delivery service from Munich?

[Meister Ether]

Btw what is Liefer-Ring?? a new delivery service from Munich?

It's in fact a delivery service from Salzburg. Not sure about your intenion of:
Nevertheless an explanation of Liefer-Ring:
You know the different meanings of the German word "Ring" like
(1) a decorative for fingers
(2) things used in sports (e. g. "Boxring")
(3) an organization of people created to reach shared goals (e.g. a cartel = a ring of traders, a ring of playgoers etc.)
Afaik, these meanings are also known in English.
In combination with "Liefer-" translating to "delivery" this play on words expressing the fact that the club's purpose is immanent in its name works quite well, doesn't it? The hyphon is essantially an accentuation substituting the right intonation, otherwise one probalby wouldn't see the play on word so easily.
Honestly, it came to me the first time I had recognized their name and their emblem which doesn't really conceal their belonging to the "Mateschitz realm", too.

Sorry for that monologue. Actually, I did cut it down.
It's a sort of occupational illness some teachers suffer from.

Back to topic:
Since 2. Liga looks more and more competitive and promoting only the champions seems insufficient, I would like to have an additional playoff format between Bundesliga and 2. Liga. Either its only 11th/6th over two legs or even with a pre-playoff within the next ranks in 2. Liga. Obviously, teams ineligible for promotion had to be ineligible for the PO as well.

[max_m]

Hello guys, whats the current situation with Rapid Wiena? They had some positive COVID players.

last week one player positiv another one before that (no symptoms) but the latest test now proved all negativ. That's important as the player has to be in homequarantine for 10 days.

Thanks for the reply. A good thing for them is that all players are ok now, bad news is that they lost some imoportant preparion time for european games.

[Club-Mate]

Btw what is Liefer-Ring?? a new delivery service from Munich?

It's in fact a delivery service from Salzburg. Not sure about your intenion of:
Nevertheless an explanation of Liefer-Ring:
You know the different meanings of the German word "Ring" like
(1) a decorative for fingers
(2) things used in sports (e. g. "Boxring")
(3) an organization of people created to reach shared goals (e.g. a cartel = a ring of traders, a ring of playgoers etc.)
Afaik, these meanings are also known in English.
In combination with "Liefer-" translating to "delivery" this play on words expressing the fact that the club's purpose is immanent in its name works quite well, doesn't it? The hyphon is essantially an accentuation substituting the right intonation, otherwise one probalby wouldn't see the play on word so easily.
Honestly, it came to me the first time I had recognized their name and their emblem which doesn't really conceal their belonging to the "Mateschitz realm", too.

Sorry for that monologue. Actually, I did cut it down.
It's a sort of occupational illness some teachers suffer from.

Back to topic:
Since 2. Liga looks more and more competitive and promoting only the champions seems insufficient, I would like to have an additional playoff format between Bundesliga and 2. Liga. Either its only 11th/6th over two legs or even with a pre-playoff within the next ranks in 2. Liga. Obviously, teams ineligible for promotion had to be ineligible for the PO as well.

I still do not know what you mean literally by "Liefer-Ring" although now you are using even Duden translations that confuses rather more. What do you expect from a Junior team more than to deliver (liefern) suitable players to their senior team? What was wrong to found this "sub-club" as a necessary reaction of a stupid decision of the Austrian FA they repaired years later? If they did not change the rules FC Liefering likely would play under Red Bull Juniors in 2. Liga.

I am with you about additional play off for 2. Liga vice champion although even more BL teams would fall into relegation battle.

[Meister Ether]

Sorry for the confusion. I simply like to play with languages. It was just away to point out the quite funny circumstance that the name of FC Liefering almost literally mirrors ther life task. Even if that's the actual name of the district and a small detail ("r") is missing. Ring might be with negative connotations due to criminal groups but it is one of dozens of synonyms for organisation.

I don't expect more from Junior teams than delivering talents to the senior team. But unlike you, I don't fancy creating a cooperation with a local small club, building a "farm team" and then officially quitting the relation to make the small team officially disjunct from the big club. Everything right until the bolded part. Similar things happened with the Leipzig/Salzburg issue a few years ago. It is not breaking rules or laws but bending them - like tax evasion. Not explictly illegal but at least morally questionable or even wrong.

I am not fully aware what the rules looked like when the creation of FC Liefering but if the set rules are problematic for a club, there should be reasonable discussions concerning the rules and if the made decisions end unfavourable for the specific club, they should accept it and not bend or bypass them.
I indeed would prefer FC Liefering playing under the name Salzbug Juniors or sth similar as an official second team. Same for Juniors OÖ. Maybe there should be a general rule of a certain share of a league being Junior teams from the next tier above. Make it officially 25% for 2. Liga and lower percentages for lower tiers if it's the best for competitveness in Austrian football and Rapid II eligible for promotion. Nevertheless, priority should always given to non-reserve teams.

What I don't like about the whole system of RB in football and sports in general - despite their undoubtfullly great work on a sporting merrit - is their acting like a solely economical entity not like a socially based and genuinely charitable entity like a real club (Verein).
If you genuinely behave charitable in the first place, you don't have to spend a certain share of your collected money for charity to put yourself back in the clear, like so many (big) enterprises do. Sports and espacially football origin is off the social area of life but the more professional it gets, the less genuinely charitable it becomes.

Maybe my pov looks old fashioned and leftist but for the better of more people, economical interests should not stand above social and ecological interests.

[krdel]

I agree with you 100% and I am not " old fashioned and leftist".

[Club-Mate]

Meister Ether - I can‘t agree to you 100% maybe not even 20%. Your issues are rather superficial not concretized just mentioning bending rules and some questionable moral issues. What is morally wrong to found a new club when there is an urgent necessity? One of your target is FC Liefering the youth team club of RB Salzburg (same with RB Leipzig/Salzburg – unjustified (morally?) allegations please get better informed from Uefa in detail) I explained FCL case already above and still you do not want to understand it thoroughly. This seems to me rather to peck at someone. You do not like their club name you do not like their existance at all and you do not even doubt to bring RB close into dubious schemings like tax evading. This is very borderline. I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY PRACTISE TAX EVADING BUT IN IRELAND AND SOME OTHER ISLANDS THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF COMPANIES REGISTERED AND PAY LOWER TAXES THERE.
Once more again and just for you: founding of FCL according to „Vereinsgesetz“ winning of RL West – applying for 2. Liga undergoing infrastructurell and financial prove. Nothing suspicious and all done according to laws and rules. RB invested 100 mio+ for academie and other things, creates hundreds of jobs and millions of added value only within the region. A sudden exclusion from playing within a suitable league for their junior team would be a business disruption a waste of resources as it was build in first instance for this reason and all partners do understand it now (but not you).
About charitability: in the annual report (not so easy to get as RB is not a public company like Pepsi Cola) you would probabely find it. However it is far from my and I guess your knowledge to compare it with other big clubs in value and efforts. It looks like a Phd thesis should be done for it.
Yesterday FA welcomed Rapid II to play in 2. Liga which is destined to be the best platform for developing young players they said now. Rapid do not need found a new club, pay extra club fees and other costs and lose time like FCL needed to do years ago and still have to.
Jong Ajax, Porto II Benfica II all play one level below top you cannot drop them into Friesland league or Alentejo region just so, they would seriously think about how to escape.

[Funkmaster]

@Meister Ether: There is definitely some “Balkan-mentality“ in Austria if you like to say so. We really like “our rules“, but there is for sure a tradition into exhausting and twisting them to the absolute maximum so that they almost become questionable again.

For example a few years ago there was this transfer of Marcel Sabitzer (now a leading player in Leipzig) from Rapid to Salzburg. The key was that Sabitzer had in his Rapid‘-contract a clause that he wasn‘t allowed to go to Salzburg (but any other club would be fine). So Leipzig bought Sabitzer and loaned him directly to Salzburg.

Another example was 1 year ago there was a huge discussion about TV-money. LASK-president Gruber wanted a different distribution and imposed himself as a representative of small clubs in second division. He wanted more money for clubs from second division. The real story was that he wasn’t the “Robin Hood of second division“, he just wanted more money for “independent“ FC Juniors (=LASK).

All the stories of FC Juniors and Liefering were already stated by Club-Mate. And I don‘t think I have to mention “LASK-Corona Gate“.

Btw Liefering is a part of Salzburg right next to the german border. But it is definitely a funny and suitable name


Next season we don‘t have 4 “second-clubs“ in second division. In fact we have 5. FC Liefering, FC Juniors, Austria II, Rapid II and also FC Kapfenberg. Sturm Graz and FC Kapfenberg started a cooperation and now they are basically Sturm‘s second club. Kapfenberg is a meaningless club with no money and no fans in a small city not far away from Graz, so Sturm made profit of Kapfenberg‘s troubles. That‘s also why Sturm didn‘t want their second team to promote and why Rapid II was able to promote to second division. So now we have 5 farm teams and 11 “real clubs“ in second division. And not even half of this 11 clubs have realistically the capability to promote to Bundesliga.

[Firnen]

Rapid seems to have hit the jackpot with the Lokomotiva draw, the Croatians have already sold half their starting lineup !

[Meister Ether]

@ Club-Mate:
Well, you partly misinterpreted my words.
Regarding FC Liefering (The pun is stopped):
It's not the point that I don't "like their club name" or "existance at all" , that's not the case. Although, I favour other clubs with different philosophies and would prefer a different situation of FC Liefering like being officially considered as Salzburg's youth team. The expansion of 2. Liga to 16 teams was a good decision but now all obvious farm teams should be officially regarded as Junior teams. I don't want to have all of them banned from second tiers generally, but a certain prevention from having to much of them shoud be maintained. After Bayen München II's championship there has been a short dispute because the idea of second teams in 2. Bundesliga. I don't want that happen since Europe's big football nations (GER, ENG, ESP, ITA) can afford rules prohibiting Juniors teams in 2nd tiers. Smaller countries like Austria and the Netherlands can't and that's allright. I understand that for RB an "exclusion from playing within a suitable league for their junior team would be a business disruption", but I am not one of their partners. I don't agree with that sort of thinking, see below.

"Getting better informed from Uefa" in case of RB Leipzig/Salzburg:
Noone can deny that the relations between Leipzig and Salzburg didn't disappear just because arrangements have been made to avoid violating Uefa's rules regarding ownership. But according to Uefa everthing is fine now. I can't do anything about it. I have to tolerate. But I don't have to find it right. I don't like "backdoor tactics" and imo RB uses a lot of them. But not only RB, also the powers behind PSG, ManCity, and so on do it. You probably don't agree and that's fine since you don't have to.

Since I am not Austrian - well, actually by a quarter of my genes - I am genuinely open for explanations of your country's football world by you and Funkmaster. Are there any other active members I missed?
I dorealize that Austrians seem to have a different approach to things like sponsoring, branding and advertising in sports. I am not used to see football kits almost looking like "Litfaß" columns, the permanent presence of brand names on experts' lapels (like "Verbund") because of sponsoring contracts or the incorpration of companies' names in club names (like "Red Bull", "RZ Pellets" or "Cashpoint")
For me, that's just too pushy. That is surely one reason why I have my doubts concerning economic entities like RB (in general not only in football/sports): RB Leipzig's and Salzburg's emblems are obvious covers of RB's company logo, the creation of "Rasenball" is just an employed trick to circumvent (maybe a better term than "to bend") the rules in German football concerning sponsoring etc. Most German football supporters among the critics of "plastic clubs" tend to demonize every "arrivé". But I want to distinguish, like in case of TSG 1899 Hoffenheim vs. RB Leipzig. The first is a long existing club sucessfully and professionally supported by a rich man with local roots, Mr. Hopp. The latter is a undoubtfully successfull creation from a profit-orientated company that looked for a new market for its expansion plans.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the work RB did for football on a sporting aspect since both Leipzig and Salzburg play very entertaining but I don't like the way how they did/do and feel free to criticize that. I am not accusing RB for anything illegal - apperently they don't seem to do anything illegal since there are no investigations conlcuding such things. I do not accuse RB of tax evasion. Accusations are not legitimate from my position since I have no proofs. You seem to be offended in your reply because of "shouting with capitals". It was a harsh ("borderline") comparision, I agree. I used it to underline my dislike of bending - or better phrased: circumventing rules which is not illegal but conflicting with my philosophy. I must state that I believe almost all profit-orientated entities are evading taxes, probably on different scales, as a basic economic principle is to avoid costs. I just angers me that taxes are always considered as costs and not as a neccessary contribution to social life. Again, you probably won't agree.

The whole argument was started by a simple play on words. I came up with it and replied to your question. I hope we are successfully sorting it out (even unnecessarily using a second language) despite I see us disagreeing a couple of times more. That's all right. I don't want all people sharing the same opinions, especially not mine. Otherwise, the world would look very sad.