Coefficient calculation principles 21/22 onwards?

[nogomet]

Ah, so it's about getting 15th first. But DZ still doesn't often get out of a EL group, and the real prize is for winning the group. Wouldn't it be better to take the 4pts + 1-2 more for the CLQ4 win + 6 games to score more? It seems to me that's definitely better than coming 2nd in a EL group. You need 2 wins and a draw just to cover the absolute minimum you've lost from not getting CL.

They've never been Pot 1 in EL though. The last two times they've won the group, they've done it from Pots 3 and 2, respectively. I imagine the chances of repeating the same success will be higher if they start from Pot 1. Still a long way to actually win the group, of course. I myself will always be sceptical about Dinamo in group stages as long as the current establishment runs and coaches the club. But if you run the Elo-based simulations of expected season points for clubs starting in EL Pot 1 and expected season points for clubs starting in CL Pot 4, I don't think there's any doubt that the former will be higher than the latter.

[Lorric]

Ah, so it's about getting 15th first. But DZ still doesn't often get out of a EL group, and the real prize is for winning the group. Wouldn't it be better to take the 4pts + 1-2 more for the CLQ4 win + 6 games to score more? It seems to me that's definitely better than coming 2nd in a EL group. You need 2 wins and a draw just to cover the absolute minimum you've lost from not getting CL.

They've never been Pot 1 in EL though. The last two times they've won the group, they've done it from Pots 3 and 2, respectively. I imagine the chances of repeating the same success will be higher if they start from Pot 1. Still a long way to actually win the group, of course. I myself will always be sceptical about Dinamo in group stages as long as the current establishment runs and coaches the club. But if you run the Elo-based simulations of expected season points for clubs starting in EL Pot 1 and expected season points for clubs starting in CL Pot 4, I don't think there's any doubt that the former will be higher than the latter.

That would involve favourites to win the EL though. Which DZ isn't. You'd need to consider DZ specifically.

[nogomet]

That would involve favourites to win the EL though. Which DZ isn't. You'd need to consider DZ specifically.

Who's saying Dinamo is a favorite to win the EL? I'm talking about the group stage and the comparison in simulated expected points between CL and EL teams based on Elo points, which are an objective measure of club strength. You do the simulation for each club separately and compare their particular expected points if they started from CL Pot 4 and expected points if they started from EL Pot 1. I'm arguing the latter will be higher for all teams with coefficients that would put them in a similar position (EL Pot 1, CL Pot 4).

[Lorric]

That would involve favourites to win the EL though. Which DZ isn't. You'd need to consider DZ specifically.

Who's saying Dinamo is a favorite to win the EL? I'm talking about the group stage and the comparison in simulated expected points between CL and EL teams based on Elo points, which are an objective measure of club strength. You do the simulation for each club separately and compare their particular expected points if they started from CL Pot 4 and expected points if they started from EL Pot 1. I'm arguing the latter will be higher for all teams with coefficients that would put them in a similar position (EL Pot 1, CL Pot 4).

Oh, okay.

[rpo.castro]

From my perspective, you climb the rankings not to have as many teams in CL groups, but to have as many guaranteed teams as possible in ANY group stage. When you're ranked below 15th place you need to pray to the heavens to have more than 1 club in the group stages. But when you rise to 11-15 or higher, suddenly a door opens for 2-3, even 4 clubs playing European football throughout the fall, which is a dream I've been dreaming about for a long time.

I might even prefer Croatian clubs to play in EL or ECL group stage than CL group stage, as with CL usually I don't have much to hope for. Not to mention the detrimental effect the CL money has to domestic leagues' competitive balance.

I, and I think I'm not the only one, would rather take part in CL in one season and not qualifying to EL/ECL in the other seasons instead of having 5 or 6 ELGS in a row with no CL.

[nogomet]

I, and I think I'm not the only one, would rather take part in CL in one season and not qualifying to EL/ECL in the other seasons instead of having 5 or 6 ELGS in a row with no CL.

You cannot be serious. That would literally decimate Portugal's rankings to the levels never seen before.

[Lorric]

There is still the question of prize money though. The new EL may have a much more favourable ratio of cash vs the CL.

[babaluj1]

What is visible from the new access list and the way of scoring, as well as the prize fund, is that the Top 5 countries passed the best. They will regularly play groups with 7/7, or France 6/6, and it is almost impossible for any other country to enter the Top 5. Behind the Top 5 leagues, it is best for leagues up to 15th place. They all have 3 guaranteed clubs in GS next season, with a new scoring they all have the opportunity to greatly improve the coefficients. Even the weakest leagues did well because their champions have a separate path at least to the ECL GS. When you give to everyone, you have to take to some. The victims of this UEFA policy will be the countries from the 16th to the 30th place. These clubs are forbidden access to the EL, except for the champions. They will play in the 2QR ECL qualifiers with little chance of entering the GS, and even when they do enter earnings will be significantly less than in the EL.

[Juliusz]

It used to be doubtful for some average teams (i.e. champions from countries ranked 11 or 12 and lower) - is it better to play CL GS, grab these guaranteed 4 points, earn money, but have a minor chance to collect more points? Or shift into EL, have just 3 points guaranteed for the club ranking at the beginning, but with potential to collect much more in the GS or even round of 32.

Now it matters whether it's better to play EL or ECL (points-wise). Just 4 champions will still qualify for CL GS anyway, but there are more champions spots in EL and ECL to be distributed. In ECL GS you can have 'easier' opponents from the champions path, but there are less bonus points available. In EL GS it can be more difficult, but this depends on the draw. At the moment, there are some big names in EL GS pot 1, but this can change. If you are lucky enough with the draw in EL, this competition should be more profitable.

[babaluj1]

There is still the question of prize money though. The new EL may have a much more favourable ratio of cash vs the CL.

Prize money will be something like CL about 74%,EL about 17% and ECL about 9%.

[rpo.castro]

I, and I think I'm not the only one, would rather take part in CL in one season and not qualifying to EL/ECL in the other seasons instead of having 5 or 6 ELGS in a row with no CL.

You cannot be serious. That would literally decimate Portugal's rankings to the levels never seen before.

What's the point of ranking by itself? None.
You want to climb the ranking to have access to better competition, to have more chances of glory and of course, money.
So, from our position, the goal is to reach Champions League and do more than a 0-0-6. Braga has been twice in CLGS and I wouldn't trade any season for any of those two, with exception of the EL Final (that was in same season of 1st CLGS). But if you offer me another CLGS instead of 5 ELGS I would take it without thinking twice?
The country ranking? IDC.

[nogomet]

The country ranking? IDC.

Then we are not talking about same things. I'm a fan of Croatian football and I want as many Croatian teams to play in group stages of UEFA competitions as possible. To have that, I need Croatia to rise in country rankings as high as possible, which will be, with this new bonus point system, much more likely with Dinamo in EL Pot 1, than Dinamo in CL Pot 4. I'm sure Dinamo would want to play in CL because of the club finances, but I care more about Croatian football as a whole.

[offside]

Rankings are only a method to allocate the UEFA competitions spots: the better the rankings, the better the spots.

[babaluj1]

The country ranking? IDC.

Then we are not talking about same things. I'm a fan of Croatian football and I want as many Croatian teams to play in group stages of UEFA competitions as possible. To have that, I need Croatia to rise in country rankings as high as possible, which will be, with this new bonus point system, much more likely with Dinamo in EL Pot 1, than Dinamo in CL Pot 4. I'm sure Dinamo would want to play in CL because of the club finances, but I care more about Croatian football as a whole.

Well said! And I would rather watch 3 or 4 Croatian clubs in the ECL league against Qarabag or Slovan, than Dinamo in the CL with Real Madrid, Liverpool or Bayern. It is normal that we want as many of our clubs as possible in European competitions. I also understand the clubs for which CL is the most important because of the earnings, but for me as a fan, it is important to have as many attractive matches as possible.

[rpo.castro]

The country ranking? IDC.

Then we are not talking about same things. I'm a fan of Croatian football and I want as many Croatian teams to play in group stages of UEFA competitions as possible. To have that, I need Croatia to rise in country rankings as high as possible, which will be, with this new bonus point system, much more likely with Dinamo in EL Pot 1, than Dinamo in CL Pot 4. I'm sure Dinamo would want to play in CL because of the club finances, but I care more about Croatian football as a whole.

Well I don't care about the number of teams but the results of the teams. I rather have good results from less teams, then having all teams happy playing ELGS or ECLGS and not going much further. The ranking is a tool to get teams in CL and get them in higher pots (to higher chances to go further) not the main goal.