Coefficient calculation principles 21/22 onwards?

[babaluj1]

The problem is that some weak clubs have very high coefficients thanks to regular appearances and a separate path for champions, say Astana or Qarabag with coefficients over 20,000. Or Zenit in pot1 CL. On the other hand, some clubs from the strongest leagues have lower coefficients than these, although they are far stronger. Then it happens that the teams from pot1 are far weaker than some from pot 4.

[amirbachar]

The problem is that some weak clubs have very high coefficients thanks to regular appearances and a separate path for champions, say Astana or Qarabag with coefficients over 20,000. Or Zenit in pot1 CL. On the other hand, some clubs from the strongest leagues have lower coefficients than these, although they are far stronger. Then it happens that the teams from pot1 are far weaker than some from pot 4.

You should understand that rankings have two goals:
1. To reflect the actual strengh
2. To promote serious participation in various competitions

UEFA clearly cares about the second - they want teams to have incentive to try qualify to EL and now ECL and have the strongest lineup there.
In addition, they don't sacrify 1 that much, the rankings are still adequate.

If they cared only about the first, they would just create an Elo type rankings with all the matches taken into account.

[babaluj1]

The problem is that some weak clubs have very high coefficients thanks to regular appearances and a separate path for champions, say Astana or Qarabag with coefficients over 20,000. Or Zenit in pot1 CL. On the other hand, some clubs from the strongest leagues have lower coefficients than these, although they are far stronger. Then it happens that the teams from pot1 are far weaker than some from pot 4.

You should understand that rankings have two goals:
1. To reflect the actual strengh
2. To promote serious participation in various competitions

UEFA clearly cares about the second - they want teams to have incentive to try qualify to EL and now ECL and have the strongest lineup there.
In addition, they don't sacrify 1 that much, the rankings are still adequate.

If they cared only about the first, they would just create an Elo type rankings with all the matches taken into account.

When you base a complete rating system on privileges, that rating can never be realistic. This season Zenit was in Pot1 CL and CSKA in Pot1 EL. Both have already dropped out as the last in the group. Next season they are again seedid teams in Pot1, Zenit in CL, and CSKA in EL, and for example far stronger teams like Union Berlin or Wolfsburg are in Pot 4 EL, or Inter in Pot 4 CL. About Qarabag, who was the last in the EL group with 1 point this season, as a team from Pot1 ECL, I better not talk, it is the same with Astana. Fortunately, those clubs are waiting for the qualifications, so it is unlikely that they will reach the EL group, but their coefficients are built in a privileged way for the champions.

[Club-Mate]

Inter obviously belong to pot 4 in CL. They have proven it in present season. Just a famous name is not enough you have to put something on the table too. The list is long where the weaker clubs from top 4 nations could not promote to CL round 16 or at least EL 32 after GS. Not to talk about failing to qualify for CL GS before they got gifted the GS place for CL from Uefa. At least two of 4th placed teams of top 4 nations should play qualifiers for CL.

[babaluj1]

Inter obviously belong to pot 4 in CL. They have proven it in present season. Just a famous name is not enough you have to put something on the table too. The list is long where the weaker clubs from top 4 nations could not promote to CL round 16 or at least EL 32 after GS. Not to talk about failing to qualify for CL GS before they got gifted the GS place for CL from Uefa. At least two of 4th placed teams of top 4 nations should play qualifiers for CL.

Inter is fighting for the title with Milan in Italy and in no way belongs to Pot 4, except according to the UEFA rating. He finished last in the toughest CL group, with 3 Top teams from Top 4 leagues and Shakhtar which is certainly one of the 3 strongest teams outside the Top leagues for years. With a little more luck, Inter could have won that group, it was about nuances, and luck.
That all clubs should play qualifiers, I agree, especially non-champions.

[angel_87]

Inter obviously belong to pot 4 in CL. They have proven it in present season. Just a famous name is not enough you have to put something on the table too. The list is long where the weaker clubs from top 4 nations could not promote to CL round 16 or at least EL 32 after GS. Not to talk about failing to qualify for CL GS before they got gifted the GS place for CL from Uefa. At least two of 4th placed teams of top 4 nations should play qualifiers for CL.

Inter is fighting for the title with Milan in Italy and in no way belongs to Pot 4, except according to the UEFA rating. He finished last in the toughest CL group, with 3 Top teams from Top 4 leagues and Shakhtar which is certainly one of the 3 strongest teams outside the Top leagues for years. With a little more luck, Inter could have won that group, it was about nuances, and luck.
That all clubs should play qualifiers, I agree, especially non-champions.

for once i would do an experiment, zero teams directly to the groups and all of them have to earn the qualification through the various rounds ... it would be exciting to see the big names of the top4 struggling like all the extra-top4 ones

[Club-Mate]

Inter is fighting for the title with Milan in Italy and in no way belongs to Pot 4, except according to the UEFA rating.

well I meant pot 3 for Inter. But Shaktar on eyelevel with Benfica, Salzburg and maybe Ajax or Porto (the big five in ELO for longer time) what I think both are a bit ahead of them and Zenit with Basel in better days, no better at all, their advantage was that their "neighbours" in Ukraine were good enough to made them play CL all the while without hardly one single qualifier in the past but their good neighbour(s) actually only Dinamo rather moves more and more to mediocrity.

[Dragonite]

Inter obviously belong to pot 4 in CL. They have proven it in present season. Just a famous name is not enough you have to put something on the table too. The list is long where the weaker clubs from top 4 nations could not promote to CL round 16 or at least EL 32 after GS. Not to talk about failing to qualify for CL GS before they got gifted the GS place for CL from Uefa. At least two of 4th placed teams of top 4 nations should play qualifiers for CL.

Inter is pot 4, you're right.

Pot 1 should be for #1-#8, pot 2 for #9-#16, pot 3 for #17-#24 and pot 4 for #25 and lower, and Inter is #25.

Fortunately for them, 6 of the 24 teams above them are English...

It's highly unlikely to have all 6 in the CL... one would have to win the CL and not finish top 4 domestically, other win the EL and not finish top 4 domestically, and the other four would have to finish top 4 domestically.

As long as this doesn't happen...

Inter is "promoted" to pot 3, despite having two third places in its group, two last places in its group and one inexistent season over the last half-decade...

[SimonB]

Fortunately for them, 6 of the 24 teams above them are English...

It's highly unlikely to have all 6 in the CL... one would have to win the CL and not finish top 4 domestically, other win the EL and not finish top 4 domestically, and the other four would have to finish top 4 domestically.

As long as this doesn't happen...

Inter is "promoted" to pot 3, despite having two third places in its group, two last places in its group and one inexistent season over the last half-decade...

I also thought that that there existed a rule to say that a maximum of 5 clubs from any one country could participate in the CL or has that rule now been discarded for the new system with 3 cups?

[dnina10]

Fortunately for them, 6 of the 24 teams above them are English...

It's highly unlikely to have all 6 in the CL... one would have to win the CL and not finish top 4 domestically, other win the EL and not finish top 4 domestically, and the other four would have to finish top 4 domestically.

As long as this doesn't happen...

Inter is "promoted" to pot 3, despite having two third places in its group, two last places in its group and one inexistent season over the last half-decade...

I also thought that that there existed a rule to say that a maximum of 5 clubs from any one country could participate in the CL or has that rule now been discarded for the new system with 3 cups?

As far as we currently know, you are right. Only 5 clubs from one county can participate in the CL in one season. I think Dragonite was trying to say in the new future that will change

[Dragonite]

To be honest I wasn't sure if that "maximum 5 clubs per country" was a rule.

So under the current rules, if Liverpool wins the CL, Tottenham wins the EL, and in the English league Arsenal is 1st placed, Chelsea 2nd placed, Manchester City 3rd placed and Manchester United 4th placed, then the "maximum 5 clubs per country" limit means that 4th placed Manchester United doesn't get a CL spot?


I remember that some years ago England tried to explore a "flaw" in UEFA's regulations when Liverpool won CL and wasn't among the top 4 domestically. England said that their 4th team was 4th placed Everton and not Liverpool, while UEFA wanted Liverpool defending its title, so the title holder Liverpool started in CLQR1!!
Everton also started in the qualifiers and wasn't good enough to reach the groups, not even the UEFA Cup groups.

Good old days...

[Forza AZ]

To be honest I wasn't sure if that "maximum 5 clubs per country" was a rule.

So under the current rules, if Liverpool wins the CL, Tottenham wins the EL, and in the English league Arsenal is 1st placed, Chelsea 2nd placed, Manchester City 3rd placed and Manchester United 4th placed, then the "maximum 5 clubs per country" limit means that 4th placed Manchester United doesn't get a CL spot?

Yes, this is the current rule. 4th placed team will enter EL-GS instead of CL.

[Lorric]

To be honest I wasn't sure if that "maximum 5 clubs per country" was a rule.

So under the current rules, if Liverpool wins the CL, Tottenham wins the EL, and in the English league Arsenal is 1st placed, Chelsea 2nd placed, Manchester City 3rd placed and Manchester United 4th placed, then the "maximum 5 clubs per country" limit means that 4th placed Manchester United doesn't get a CL spot?


I remember that some years ago England tried to explore a "flaw" in UEFA's regulations when Liverpool won CL and wasn't among the top 4 domestically. England said that their 4th team was 4th placed Everton and not Liverpool, while UEFA wanted Liverpool defending its title, so the title holder Liverpool started in CLQR1!!
Everton also started in the qualifiers and wasn't good enough to reach the groups, not even the UEFA Cup groups.

Good old days...

Yes, and after the Liverpool episode, a 4 team limit was established, so if it had gone that way again, Everton would have been dropped to the EL. I don't remember any exploitation though. Rules were top 4 to the CL, there was no spot for the champ, and Liverpool weren't in the top 4. UEFA were the ones that wanted Liverpool in, and put them into Q1.

Still remember how terribly unlucky Everton were to draw a Villarreal side to qualify that went on to reach the semis.

[babaluj1]

Inter is fighting for the title with Milan in Italy and in no way belongs to Pot 4, except according to the UEFA rating.

well I meant pot 3 for Inter. But Shaktar on eyelevel with Benfica, Salzburg and maybe Ajax or Porto (the big five in ELO for longer time) what I think both are a bit ahead of them and Zenit with Basel in better days, no better at all, their advantage was that their "neighbours" in Ukraine were good enough to made them play CL all the while without hardly one single qualifier in the past but their good neighbour(s) actually only Dinamo rather moves more and more to mediocrity.

http://clubelo.com/Ranking

The three currently strongest clubs outside the Top 4 league by clubelo are 9.PSG, 20.Porto and 26.Shakhtar. Your Basel is not even in the Top 100, while the number 11. is Inter, in terms of strength, Inter should be in the 2nd pot CL.

[Club-Mate]

Inter is fighting for the title with Milan in Italy and in no way belongs to Pot 4, except according to the UEFA rating.

well I meant pot 3 for Inter. But Shaktar on eyelevel with Benfica, Salzburg and maybe Ajax or Porto (the big five in ELO for longer time) what I think both are a bit ahead of them and Zenit with Basel in better days, no better at all, their advantage was that their "neighbours" in Ukraine were good enough to made them play CL all the while without hardly one single qualifier in the past but their good neighbour(s) actually only Dinamo rather moves more and more to mediocrity.

http://clubelo.com/Ranking

The three currently strongest clubs outside the Top 4 league by clubelo are 9.PSG, 20.Porto and 26.Shakhtar. Your Basel is not even in the Top 100, while the number 11. is Inter, in terms of strength, Inter should be in the 2nd pot CL.

is this the fake elo you often use? But I tried to explain it already some time ago. Well there are already several of elos nowadays on the market and there is defenitely one you would find great and I'll find one that suits me so we rather stick to Uefa 5 years ranking, fair enough?! Anyway if you did read carefully I wrote: "Zenit with Basel in better days" that simply means they had better times some time ago. So it's not MY Basel but just a neutral note. If you look at Dragonite's positioning for Inter somewhere else here than you'll find them in pot 4 as if by magic. But nobody would eg Atletico put seriously in pot 4 so you can see that Inter has still to go a long way to get to the top.