eye wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 02:13
I believe @Fotcalc is correct here and the rebalanced access list @bert.kassies has at the site is wrong (although it might end up with NOR-CW at EL-Q2).
....
Another issue with access list of @bert.kassies is promoting NOR-CW at EL-Q2 due to Russia's ban it means that NOR-CW wouldn't be able to take part at the rebalancing process of ECL-W which seems wrong. If this happens then it is possible a club of Q1 from a lower ranked country than Norway and lower coefficient that NOR-CW to be promoted to EL-Q3 only because of rebalancing due to Russia's ban while NOR-CW to be at EL-Q2.
...
No problem to have different opinions. But for me there is no other issue because I think that no club will be promoted from EL-Q1 to EL-Q3.
You may be correct that UEFA will not publish a separate access list for the ban of Russian clubs. But about the order I don't know. CL title holder and EL title holder rebalancing will be applied before the EPS spots. But until now country bans were always applied before other rebalancing.
eye wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 02:13
I believe @Fotcalc is correct here and the rebalanced access list @bert.kassies has at the site is wrong (although it might end up with NOR-CW at EL-Q2).
....
Another issue with access list of @bert.kassies is promoting NOR-CW at EL-Q2 due to Russia's ban it means that NOR-CW wouldn't be able to take part at the rebalancing process of ECL-W which seems wrong. If this happens then it is possible a club of Q1 from a lower ranked country than Norway and lower coefficient that NOR-CW to be promoted to EL-Q3 only because of rebalancing due to Russia's ban while NOR-CW to be at EL-Q2.
...
No problem to have different opinions. But for me there is no other issue because I think that no club will be promoted from EL-Q1 to EL-Q3.
You may be correct that UEFA will not publish a separate access list for the ban of Russian clubs. But about the order I don't know. CL title holder and EL title holder rebalancing will be applied before the EPS spots. But until now country bans were always applied before other rebalancing.
Till today the order of rebalancing wasn't important at all since the outcome was always the same. So when UEFA was publishing the decision for a country ban they were also publishing updated access list in order clubs to know where they will be located. This doesn't necessary mean that rebalancing was applied before but maybe was just info of a sure change.
At the new system order may produre plenty of different outcomes. If ban is applied first then eg a club from CL-Q1 may move to CL-Q2 and then win another rebalance if club has the highest coefficient of round. I don't think it is logical a club to be promoted twice.
By the way at the table here https://kassiesa.net/uefa/2024-rebalanc ... nking.html Basel cannot qualify to any competition since can't finish at top6 at regular season and take part at the championship group and was eliminated from cup too.
eye wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 13:45
Till today the order of rebalancing wasn't important at all since the outcome was always the same. So when UEFA was publishing the decision for a country ban they were also publishing updated access list in order clubs to know where they will be located.
In the 2022/23 season UEFA at May 2 published an updated access list with only the the ban of Russian clubs. Later on, they published the final access list with the rebalancing of the Champions League title holder and Conference League title holder.
eye wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 13:45
Till today the order of rebalancing wasn't important at all since the outcome was always the same. So when UEFA was publishing the decision for a country ban they were also publishing updated access list in order clubs to know where they will be located.
In the 2022/23 season UEFA at May 2 published an updated access list with only the the ban of Russian clubs. Later on, they published the final access list with the rebalancing of the Champions League title holder and Conference League title holder.
Thanks for feedback on the rebalance table.
I remember it. Although it didn't matter if the rebalancing due to ban or due to THs will be held first because the final outcome would still have been the same. I believe it was only an extra info that was given earlier to the clubs that were going to be promoted due to the ban. Probably even the algorith of their computers was still performing TH's rebalancing first if it was designed in such way. Now it is a totally different situation.
As for your rebalance table I think it would be better if you remove the labels CH, CW, N2 etc from the clubs that cannot get these spots anymore. The red color indicates that club cannot get the spot but it is better if you don't see anything written than see something and then you need to find out or remember what the meaning of the color is
I didn't understand totally how this can happen. Most likely they are assuming that if CL or EL winner finishes 5th in league the EPS spot will be given to the 6th club of league even to 7th if 5th and 6th are CL and EL winners. Although at regulations it is clear in my opinion that cannot happen
The EPS is allocated to the club that finishes the relevant association's domestic championship in the highest position of all those that do not qualify for the league phase of the UEFA Champions League via the domestic championship(after any vacancies have been filled in accordance with Paragraph 3.04 to Paragraph 3.06).
On the other hand at regulations it is very clear that EPS are awarded after the end of the rebalancing and there is no mention what happens if the club that gets the EPS from league is also CL or EL winner. Most likely there will be again rebalancing based on club coefficients but maybe giving the spot to the first availiable club of country might be a possibility too
eye wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 16:39
I didn't understand totally how this can happen. Most likely they are assuming that if CL or EL winner finishes 5th in league the EPS spot will be given to the 6th club of league even to 7th if 5th and 6th are CL and EL winners. Although at regulations it is clear in my opinion that cannot happen
The EPS is allocated to the club that finishes the relevant association's domestic championship in the highest position of all those that do not qualify for the league phase of the UEFA Champions League via the domestic championship(after any vacancies have been filled in accordance with Paragraph 3.04 to Paragraph 3.06).
Even if we read this as EPS being giving to the top team in domestic league that didn’t qualify to UCL, a 6th place ManU will not qualify to UCL(in theory it’s possible, but very improbable). The 5th place in EPL this year will be Villa or Spurs (they are 10 pts and 20+ GD behind City with 6/7 games to play). However, neither of them can win UCL or UEL this year so the EPL 5th place team will claim the EPS.
For a 6th place ManU to get EPS it will take not only a favorable reading of EPS allocation, but also for Arsenal, Liverpool, or City to win UCL or UEL AND drop to 5th behind both Spurs and Villa (both teams covering 10 or 11 pts plus 20+ GD in 7 or 6 games).
It is clearly in contradiction of the regulations. But the last remark is very true. It would be a boost for ManU lol.
I'm glad that someone else also sees it the exact same way I do.
Using the Serie A as a more realistic scenario, Roma (or Atalanta) finishing 5th while winning the EL would mean they qualified for the CL as EL TH, not via their domestic league. Thus, as per Article 3.07 of the UEFA Champions League regulations for next season, they would not have qualified for the CL via domestic play.
One of my non-UEFA/ECA contacts confirmed what talkSPORT wrote to me (he was at a meeting last month with a UEFA representative). That said, I've already written a couple of emails
It is clearly in contradiction of the regulations. But the last remark is very true. It would be a boost for ManU lol.
I'm glad that someone else also sees it the exact same way I do.
Using the Serie A as a more realistic scenario, Roma (or Atalanta) finishing 5th while winning the EL would mean they qualified for the CL as EL TH, not via their domestic league. Thus, as per Article 3.07 of the UEFA Champions League regulations for next season, they would not have qualified for the CL via domestic play.
One of my non-UEFA/ECA contacts confirmed what talkSPORT wrote to me (he was at a meeting last month with a UEFA representative). That said, I've already written a couple of emails
Sorry, I only read the below the twitter message, and not the article on talksport. Still I'm saying that it is not true, because it depends on the league position of West Ham and ManU. If West Ham is outside the top 5 and ManU is at position 5, or WestHam is at position 5 and ManU at position 6, and England gets the EPS spot, then ManU could qualify as the 6th English club. I'm not to sure that "via the domestic championship" in article 3.04 has a specific meaning, so I tend to read art. 3.04 as "highest of all clubs not qualified for CL".
It is clearly in contradiction of the regulations. But the last remark is very true. It would be a boost for ManU lol.
I'm glad that someone else also sees it the exact same way I do.
Using the Serie A as a more realistic scenario, Roma (or Atalanta) finishing 5th while winning the EL would mean they qualified for the CL as EL TH, not via their domestic league. Thus, as per Article 3.07 of the UEFA Champions League regulations for next season, they would not have qualified for the CL via domestic play.
One of my non-UEFA/ECA contacts confirmed what talkSPORT wrote to me (he was at a meeting last month with a UEFA representative). That said, I've already written a couple of emails
Sorry, I only read the below the twitter message, and not the article on talksport. Still I'm saying that it is not true, because it depends on the league position of West Ham and ManU. If West Ham is outside the top 5 and ManU is at position 5, or WestHam is at position 5 and ManU at position 6, and England gets the EPS spot, then ManU could qualify as the 6th English club. I'm not to sure that "via the domestic championship" in article 3.04 has a specific meaning, so I tend to read art. 3.04 as "highest of all clubs not qualified for CL".
I think that for EPL this season the reading of 3.04 is not important. For WestHam to finish 5 they have to make up 12 pts and 21 GD. While this is theoretically possible, it’s not very likely.
I agree with @dnina10, If we are going to have this discussion it should be focused on Serie A (Roma or Atalanta finishing 5th and winning UEL).
Sagy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 21:05
I agree with @dnina10, If we are going to have this discussion it should be focused on Serie A (Roma or Atalanta finishing 5th and winning UEL).
You have time until tomorrow night or at most next Thursday for this discussion, so hurry up!
It is clearly in contradiction of the regulations. But the last remark is very true. It would be a boost for ManU lol.
I'm glad that someone else also sees it the exact same way I do.
Using the Serie A as a more realistic scenario, Roma (or Atalanta) finishing 5th while winning the EL would mean they qualified for the CL as EL TH, not via their domestic league. Thus, as per Article 3.07 of the UEFA Champions League regulations for next season, they would not have qualified for the CL via domestic play.
One of my non-UEFA/ECA contacts confirmed what talkSPORT wrote to me (he was at a meeting last month with a UEFA representative). That said, I've already written a couple of emails
Sorry, I only read the below the twitter message, and not the article on talksport. Still I'm saying that it is not true, because it depends on the league position of West Ham and ManU. If West Ham is outside the top 5 and ManU is at position 5, or WestHam is at position 5 and ManU at position 6, and England gets the EPS spot, then ManU could qualify as the 6th English club. I'm not to sure that "via the domestic championship" in article 3.04 has a specific meaning, so I tend to read art. 3.04 as "highest of all clubs not qualified for CL".
I'm referring to article 3.07 of the CL regulations, which explicitly states that the EPS goes to the highest ranked team not qualified via domestic league. By that exact wording, qualifying as TH doesn't count towards that. There aren't even any semantics here because the wording is quite clear.
This one's on UEFA, because they have confused everyone now by writing that one line incorrectly. Since what talkSPORT is saying is apparently true, the regulations should say the highest ranked club not to have qualified for the CL LP. Once you add the words via domestic league, it implies something totally different
Yes, it does, and it is the correct meaning of the regulations.
UEFA's media release says:
Slots three and four: These places will go to the associations with the best collective performance by their clubs in the previous season (i.e. the association club coefficient of the previous season, which is based on the total number of club coefficient points obtained by each club from an association divided by the number of participating clubs from that association). Those two associations will each earn one automatic place in the league phase ('European Performance Spot') for the club ranked next-best in their domestic league behind those clubs that have already qualified directly for the league phase.
CL-TH and EL-TH qualify directly for the league phase.
