New Formats Post 2024-

[krdel]

Why? Because someone like Marseille is so bad, that getting anyone else is so much tougher?

[Sagy]

Why? Because someone like Marseille is so bad, that getting anyone else is so much tougher?

First, we can you the theoretical argument. The reason for the proposed restrictions is that, for example, English teams are tougher so you shouldn’t play two of them. If that claim is true then in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I would want to get a French team over an English team. However, since I got PSG from pot 1, under this restriction, I can’t get a French team and my chances of getting a English team are higher.

Second let’s look at the teams that “predicted” to be in pot 4 next season. The French teams have lower ELO than the English, Spanish, and Italian teams that are predicted to be in pot 4.

Code: Select all

Team          ELO
Villa     ENG 1,837
Girona    ESP 1,780
Bologna   ITA 1,780
Stuttgart GER 1,754
Monaco    FRA 1,722
Brest     FRA 1,700

So if you get PSG from pot 1, you are likely to get a tougher opponent from Pot 4 compared to someone that got the weakest Pot 1 team (must be from one of these 5 countries).

[amirbachar]

Why? Because someone like Marseille is so bad, that getting anyone else is so much tougher?

First, we can you the theoretical argument. The reason for the proposed restrictions is that, for example, English teams are tougher so you shouldn’t play two of them. If that claim is true then in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I would want to get a French team over an English team. However, since I got PSG from pot 1, under this restriction, I can’t get a French team and my chances of getting a English team are higher.

Second let’s look at the teams that “predicted” to be in pot 4 next season. The French teams have lower ELO than the English, Spanish, and Italian teams that are predicted to be in pot 4.

Code: Select all

Team          ELO
Villa     ENG 1,837
Girona    ESP 1,780
Bologna   ITA 1,780
Stuttgart GER 1,754
Monaco    FRA 1,722
Brest     FRA 1,700

So if you get PSG from pot 1, you are likely to get a tougher opponent from Pot 4 compared to someone that got the weakest Pot 1 team (must be from one of these 5 countries).

Where are the other 3 teams from pot 4? I guess they have lower Elo, right?
Anyway, of course it is all based on the assumption that country is correlated with ability (controlling for pot).
It may not always be case, but it is more likely to be.
I'll add another argument - style of play/physical attributes are correlated with country.
Israeli teams for example are known to have worse performance against western European teams, so by having a country protection, it mitigates the luck of the draw.
Another argument would be that the country coefficients variance would increase without protection - let's say two teams from one country x plays Manchester City, then the impact of City on x's coefficients is larger.
Anyway, these are all subtle arguments, but the thing is that there is very little damage in having this restriction, so it may well be introduced.

[Sagy]

Why? Because someone like Marseille is so bad, that getting anyone else is so much tougher?

First, we can you the theoretical argument. The reason for the proposed restrictions is that, for example, English teams are tougher so you shouldn’t play two of them. If that claim is true then in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I would want to get a French team over an English team. However, since I got PSG from pot 1, under this restriction, I can’t get a French team and my chances of getting a English team are higher.

Second let’s look at the teams that “predicted” to be in pot 4 next season. The French teams have lower ELO than the English, Spanish, and Italian teams that are predicted to be in pot 4.

Code: Select all

Team          ELO
Villa     ENG 1,837
Girona    ESP 1,780
Bologna   ITA 1,780
Stuttgart GER 1,754
Monaco    FRA 1,722
Brest     FRA 1,700

So if you get PSG from pot 1, you are likely to get a tougher opponent from Pot 4 compared to someone that got the weakest Pot 1 team (must be from one of these 5 countries).

Where are the other 3 teams from pot 4? I guess they have lower Elo, right?

What difference does that make for this discussion?

In all cases the team that got PSG is more likely to get a tougher teams in pot 4 than the team that got the worst pot 1 team.

For completeness, all three are below the French teams (1,667; 1,638; 1,598) and no one will be restricted from getting them.

Anyway, of course it is all based on the assumption that country is correlated with ability (controlling for pot).
It may not always be case, but it is more likely to be.
I'll add another argument - style of play/physical attributes are correlated with country.
Israeli teams for example are known to have worse performance against western European teams, so by having a country protection, it mitigates the luck of the draw.

given that all top 8 leagues are Western European this restriction (a specific country) will have very limited impact (more likely, no impact)

Another argument would be that the country coefficients variance would increase without protection - let's say two teams from one country x plays Manchester City, then the impact of City on x's coefficients is larger.

The impact of that is negligible. Only a country with 5 teams can get two or more teams into CL with a chance to face Man City. Have to face Man City *2 plus 2 other pot 1 teams compared to Man City plus 3 pot 1 teams from countries other than England is not that meaningful on a country ranking (especially after being divided by 5 or more and the fact that these two teams will play an additional 12 games outside pot 1).

Anyway, these are all subtle arguments, but the thing is that there is very little damage in having this restriction, so it may well be introduced.

See post below for clarification
“very little damage”

Consider England under your system: Man City and Liverpool will have to play teams from Spain, Germany, Italy, and France from pot 1 (there are not going to be more than 5 different countries in pot 1 in the near future).
Which pot 1 teams will Arsenal and Villa play?

Much worse, Germany (or Spain, or England, or Italy) will have 3 teams in pot 1. The first 2 will play teams from the other 4 countries in pot 1.
Which teams in pot 1 will the 3rd team play?

[amirbachar]

First, we can you the theoretical argument. The reason for the proposed restrictions is that, for example, English teams are tougher so you shouldn’t play two of them. If that claim is true then in Pot 3 and Pot 4 I would want to get a French team over an English team. However, since I got PSG from pot 1, under this restriction, I can’t get a French team and my chances of getting a English team are higher.

Second let’s look at the teams that “predicted” to be in pot 4 next season. The French teams have lower ELO than the English, Spanish, and Italian teams that are predicted to be in pot 4.

Code: Select all

Team          ELO
Villa     ENG 1,837
Girona    ESP 1,780
Bologna   ITA 1,780
Stuttgart GER 1,754
Monaco    FRA 1,722
Brest     FRA 1,700

So if you get PSG from pot 1, you are likely to get a tougher opponent from Pot 4 compared to someone that got the weakest Pot 1 team (must be from one of these 5 countries).

Where are the other 3 teams from pot 4? I guess they have lower Elo, right?

What difference does that make for this discussion?

The others are relevant because they can meet that team as well, so in practice the average is lower

In all cases the team that got PSG is more likely to get a tougher teams in pot 4 than the team that got the worst pot 1 team.

For completeness, all three are below the French teams (1,667; 1,638; 1,598) and no one will be restricted from getting them.

Anyway, of course it is all based on the assumption that country is correlated with ability (controlling for pot).
It may not always be case, but it is more likely to be.
I'll add another argument - style of play/physical attributes are correlated with country.
Israeli teams for example are known to have worse performance against western European teams, so by having a country protection, it mitigates the luck of the draw.

given that all top 8 leagues are Western European this restriction (a specific country) will have very limited impact (more likely, no impact)
OK, this was just an example, there can be other style of play bad match ups as well. I agree it's not a strong argument anyway

Another argument would be that the country coefficients variance would increase without protection - let's say two teams from one country x plays Manchester City, then the impact of City on x's coefficients is larger.

The impact of that is negligible. Only a country with 5 teams can get two or more teams into CL with a chance to face Man City. Have to face Man City *2 plus 2 other pot 1 teams compared to Man City plus 3 pot 1 teams from countries other than England is not that meaningful on a country ranking (especially after being divided by 5 or more and the fact that these two teams will play an additional 12 games outside pot 1).
But there are such countries, and the top ones compete for an extra CL spot...

Anyway, these are all subtle arguments, but the thing is that there is very little damage in having this restriction, so it may well be introduced.

“very little damage”

Consider England under your system: Man City and Liverpool will have to play teams from Spain, Germany, Italy, and France from pot 1 (there are not going to be more than 5 different countries in pot 1 in the near future).
Which pot 1 teams will Arsenal and Villa play?

Much worse, Germany (or Spain, or England, or Italy) will have 3 teams in pot 1. The first 2 will play teams from the other 4 countries in pot 1.
Which teams in pot 1 will the 3rd team play?

I don't follow the example, but of course this can be lifted if it leads to a deadlock, first priority would still be to prevent teams from the the country meeting

[Sagy]

To clarify my last point and I’ll also edit the quoted post above so there is less confusion.

As I understand (I might very well be missing something) the reasons for the banning playing same country proposed restriction are:
1) “X” will be impacted if a team has to play multiple teams from the same league because the league is tougher.
2) “X” will be impacted if multiple teams from the same league have to play a tough opponent.

If both of these are true, then
3) “X” will be impacted if multiple teams from the same league have to play multiple teams from a tougher league

The point of the example was to show that if you are really trying to prevent “X”, you have a situation with multiple deadlocks.

[Juliusz]

The regulations are online.

https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulation ... /25-Online
https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulation ... /25-Online
https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulation ... /25-Online

New bonus points:




Tie breakers in the league phase:


If I understand correctly, seeding in qualifying rounds in the champions path will be decided by club coefficients and not based on round they qualified from or no open draws.

[TommyChat]

That's what I understand as well for seeding, club coefficients everywhere. For example COL Q2 CP will be seeded based on the coefficient of the unseeded club in CL Q1.

[TommyChat]

So new max points are 48 for UCL, 40 for EL and 32 for ECL.

[Overgame]

EL and ECL
Article 14 Draw system – qualifying phase and play-offs
14.01
A draw between the same number of seeded and unseeded clubs determines the ties for the qualifying phase and play-offs. Clubs are seeded for these draws in accordance with the club coefficient rankings established at the beginning of the season (see Annex D) and with the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee. If, for any reason, any of the participants in the rounds concerned are not known at the time of the draw, the coefficients of the two clubs involved in the undecided tie are used for the purposes of the draw. For the club advancing to the next round of the competition as winner of the tie, the coefficient of the club with the higher coefficient of the two clubs involved is used for the purposes of the draw. For the other club, which is fed into the relevant round of the competition from another competition, the lower coefficient of the two clubs in the pairing of the other competition is used for the purposes of the draw.

So yes, clubs eliminated in CLQ2 (or any round in general) will use the lowest coefficient in ELQ3 of their pair, while the winner will use the higher coefficient in CLQ3.

[Lorric]

Coefficient point inflation is going to go through the roof with these bonus points!

[nogomet]

Is this the end of the infamous Priorities 1,2,3,4 in the EL-PO draw?

[Overgame]

EL regulations:

3.09
If the UEFA Conference League titleholder qualifies for the league phase of the UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions:

a) The vacancy created in the league phase is filled by the club with the highest individual club coefficient of all the clubs that qualify for the main path or play-offs of the competition, provided that the club is either the domestic cup winner or the highest domestically ranked club from its association that has not already qualified for the league phase of the competition directly;

b) The play-offs and/or main path are adapted accordingly, with priority given to the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if qualifies for the UCL) and with each subsequent vacancy filled by the club(s) with the highest individual club coefficient(s) of all the clubs in the previous round of the main path, with the exception of clubs qualifying for the second qualifying round of the main path; in this case, priority is given to the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League), so the club with the highest individual club coefficient of all the clubs in the first qualifying round is moved up instead of one from the second qualifying round;

c) The main path is rebalanced accordingly with priority given to the domestic cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League).

3.10
If the UEFA Conference League titleholder qualifies for the qualifying phase or play-offs of the competition:

a) The qualifying rounds or play-offs are adapted accordingly, with priority given to the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League) and with each subsequent vacancy filled by the club(s) with the highest individual club coefficient(s) of all the clubs in the previous round of the main path, with the exception of clubs qualifying for the second qualifying round of the main path; in this case, priority is given to the cup winner(s) (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UCL), so the club with the highest individual club coefficient of all the clubs in the first qualifying round is moved up instead of one from the second qualifying round;

b) The main path is rebalanced accordingly with priority given to the cup winner(s) of the UEFA Conference League (or the club(s) replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League).

3.11
In the event of any other vacancies, and further knock-on effects in the UEFA Conference League, priority is given to the best ranked club(s) or cup winner(s) (or the club replacing it if it qualifies for the UEFA Champions League) of the association ranked highest in the access list for the previous round of the corresponding path.

3.12
If the UEFA Conference League titleholder qualifies for the UEFA Champions League through its domestic championship, it has the right to choose between entering the UEFA Champions League or the league phase of the UEFA Europa League (see Paragraph 3.07). If it chooses to enter the UEFA Champions League, it vacates its position in the league phase of the UEFA Europa League. The vacancy created is filled in line with Paragraph 3.09.

I don't understand why there is a difference between 3.09 b) and 3.10 c).

[Teymur]

So new max points are 48 for UCL, 40 for EL and 32 for ECL.

No, for CL 52 point.
You forget 4 bonus points for CL League praise.

[amenina]

CL Regulations 16.02
In principle, teams from the same association cannot be drawn against each other and each team may play against a maximum of two opponents from any other one association, subject to Paragraph 16.03.